Tuesday, December 4, 2007

Update: Troofer Infighting after O&A Confrontation

From the Troofer's MeetUp event listing:



Looks like there's still some bad blood from the ny911truth/wearechange split.

107 comments:

Pat said...

Good catch, Mikey! I'll put this up a little later; I want to leave the Henry62 post up for a bit this morning so more people can see it, but I'll add another top post with this later.

Caper said...

Hey, who was that little grease bag that went on for a minute about Ben Chertoff being a nephew of Michael Chertoff..... Those truthers must be pissed at that little loser. hahaha... that fatty probably ate him after that performance.

Debunking Metz said...

"Why is it that truthers give a complete pass to supposed "whistleblowers" who withhold explosive evidence for fear of losing their jobs, yet you guys don't hesitate to accuse people like Noam Chomsky of mass murder or accuse Opie & Anthony of being "gatekeepers" for the same reason?"

I have never said that, and if you want to say I'm guilty by association, then you would be guilty as a debunker for being associated with troy who said he was glad Aaron Russo died, glad Willie Rodriguez's wife had a miscarriage, etc.


"Haha, and this was your big $1000fundraiser event?"

Again, as a person who probably has not raised money for the first responders, are you really that much of a jackass that you would balk at any amount of money raised by the first responders? You really are disgusting.

"How much did you guys have to pay Dylan and Bermas?"

Nothing. As you're aware of because you hosted an event with them in which they didn't ask you to pay them.

MikeyMetz said...

Debunking Metz = Justin Martell of Student Scholars for 9/11 Truth (15 minutes of) fame.

You see, Mr. Martell has nothing to say of the actual content of this blog, so he posts his response of cherry-picked quotes of mine from the Screw Loose Change blog. I have already responded to Justin regarding this post. I'll spare everyone the repetition, as that's the only winning strategy troofers like Justin can muster.

Anonymous said...

"Cherry picked quotes".. always laugh whenever I see that. It's a very common complaint from people like Mikey who suffer from constant "diarrhea of the mouth".

Something tells me he won't learn anything from the experience.

mikeymetz said...

umm, anon... err, Justin,

You pick and choose which quotes you'd like to reply to, usually ones that focus you. It's pretty simple, actually. Damn man, just look at your last post.

Anonymous said...

Justin Martell is never much sport over at screw loose change, he always disappears whenever somebody issues a challenge that he can't meet with a shallow response... err, yes just like above.

mikeymetz said...

Justin Martell, I have a very serious hypothetical question for you. Take it or leave it:

If everything troofers claim about 9/11 is true and there is a significant degree of government complicity in the attacks, why didn't the US just plant weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Some food for thought before you answer:

Why would the US be willing to kill 3,000 of its own citizens to justify a war, yet not be willing to just plant some chemical weapons in the desert? If they're so brilliant that they can perpetrate the attacks and cover it up, why couldn't they figure out how to plant the WMDs?

Think about it, there'd be so much support for the war effort, we'd already be in Iran and Syria by now, as well as in Iraq, as we would have met the same resistance either way.

Answer my question and maybe I'll have the slightest degree of respect for you as a "student scholar."

Anonymous said...

My name is not Justin, but I'll answer the question:

The 9/11 attacks were not planned and executed for the sole purpose of justifying a war. First and foremost, the attacks reinforced the political ideology of uniting the people against a common cause.. look back through history, you'll see that theme repeated almost throughout.

With regard to planting WMDs - I have no idea. Probably because they felt they didn't need to (having sold WMDs to Saddam sometime earlier). It's irrelevant, really, because it doesn't change the possibility or impossibility of the US Government's explanation for 9/11. No amount of reasoning or "hypothetical questions" can transform the OT into something that is physically possible.

mikeymetz said...

"The 9/11 attacks were not planned and executed for the sole purpose of justifying a war. First and foremost, the attacks reinforced the political ideology of uniting the people against a common cause.. look back through "history, you'll see that theme repeated almost throughout."

Hmmm... and what was that common cause, sir?

"With regard to planting WMDs - I have no idea. Probably because they felt they didn't need to (having sold WMDs to Saddam sometime earlier)."

They felt they didn't need to? So, they'd just rather look like idiots and liars? Admit it, troofer, if we found WMDs you'd probably never have become a troofer to begin with. Trooferism is the illogical progression of saying "well, they lied to us about Iraq, who's to say they're not lying about 9/11?"

"It's irrelevant, really, because it doesn't change the possibility or impossibility of the US Government's explanation for 9/11."

It is relevant, though. You guys relate the two subjects all the time. And now you're claiming that our all knowing, all powerful government wouldn't be able to pull off a dignified justification for us going to war? You know, without looking like total idiots and liars in the process?

"No amount of reasoning or "hypothetical questions" can transform the OT into something that is physically possible."

That's only because you refuse to (or don't have the ability to) reason. What makes the "OT" so impossible? How are the conspiracy theories, which imply that 1000s of people were involved and now covering it up, any less impossible?

patrick cm said...

Hmmm... and what was that common cause, sir?"""

Terrorism is bad, demockracy is good.

They felt they didn't need to? So, they'd just rather look like idiots and liars? Admit it, troofer, if we found WMDs you'd probably never have become a troofer to begin with. Trooferism is the illogical progression of saying "well, they lied to us about Iraq, who's to say they're not lying about 9/11?"""

If the plan is to have a world government, you would have to get ride of america wich is the current super power. Lying about WMD's makes america look badly, makes us look like a tyrant to some. If you want a world government you have to bring america down. You have to make the euro worth more than the USD.

Not only did they lie to us about the current iraq situation, but they also lied about the first iraq war. Before congress voted on to go to war, they trauted in a kuwaiti ambassadors daughter to congress and had her go on and cry about iraqi solidiers taking babies out of incubators and letting them die on the cold floor which was completely made up and staged to get the vote for war. So maybe we shouldn't trust these people about 9/11 huh?


It is relevant, though. You guys relate the two subjects all the time. And now you're claiming that our all knowing, all powerful government wouldn't be able to pull off a dignified justification for us going to war? You know, without looking like total idiots and liars in the process?""""

They did and have pulled of justifications for us going to war. We have been in a whole shit load of wars. They always looki like idiots and liars. One of there most used excuses is we are idiots. 9/11 happened because we are idiots. So everytime we are idiots, we need to give the idiots more money so they won't be idiots, but we havn't figured out that paying people to be idiots isn't a good idea, since they have no reason to not be an idiot.

That's only because you refuse to (or don't have the ability to) reason. What makes the "OT" so impossible? How are the conspiracy theories, which imply that 1000s of people were involved and now covering it up, any less impossible?"""

I'd say WTC 7 alone makes the OT impossible. Nevermind the whole thing about how ridiculous it is to think that a jumbo jet can do more damage than a truck bomb.

Bored Surfer said...

"Nevermind the whole thing about how ridiculous it is to think that a jumbo jet can do more damage than a truck bomb."

Wow, and here I thought that I had heard every dumb thing that the Troofers had ever written.

Hey patrick, do you get the difference between a continual burn, like loads of burning jet fuel blazing away for an hour or so, and an explosion whose duration is instanttaneous? I'm just curious.

Also, while I'm mocking you, did you ever read the FBI report on the 1993 WTC attack, or the trial transcripts? (I know, I'm asking a troofer if he read the original material, the answer is no.) If the terrorists behind the 1993 attack had parked their truck in the right spot, closer to the support beams, the tower would have come down.

When the jets hit the towers on 9/11, the burning jet fuel, being a liquid, went down every nook and cranny. That includes elevator shafts and the sides and surfaces of the major support beams. It also kept the fires burning in several floors of office space, because all that paper and wood made for good kindling.

In other words, arsonists are more successful at soaking a building in flammable fluid than they are by tossing a hand grenade.

I know that you troofer morons keep thinking the steel has to melt for the towers to fall, you seem incapable of udnerstanding that steel can weaken and that a building that tall will fall under its own weight without proper support, but surely you udnerstand the difference between "that which continues to burn for an hour in all the vulnerable spots" vs. "that which doesn't continue to burn for an hour and didn't go off in the right spot (thankfully."

patrick cm said...

my god you are right, we should tell the military about this, we don't need to make bombs or missles we can just fly jumbo jets at our enemies.

you write the e mail ok?

Bored Surfer said...

Don't need to, ya doofus, they already invented napalm.

Like most troofers, I see that you dodged the question. You can't handle any fact that shakes your whackazoid little world view.

patrick cm said...

really I can't handle facts?

Can you handle the fact that firefighters saw melted steel which is physically impossible ya doofus.

And Yes I know about napalm, but I have yet to see anyone use it to bring down a building. you'd think they would if they could, but they can't cause you need more than fire to make a buidling turn into melted steel and dust.

Anonymous said...

"Hmmm... and what was that common cause, sir?"

Ummm.. this certainly explains a lot. The common cause I was referring to was "the war on terror". Shame on me for assuming that you would be able to figure that out.

"They felt they didn't need to? So, they'd just rather look like idiots and liars? Admit it, troofer, if we found WMDs you'd probably never have become a troofer to begin with. Trooferism is the illogical progression of saying "well, they lied to us about Iraq, who's to say they're not lying about 9/11?""

No, actually it's just looking at the events of 9/11 objectively, and facing the undeniable fact that the OT is physically impossible. It has nothing to do with the war, or anything else political. It's science.. period.

"That's only because you refuse to (or don't have the ability to) reason. What makes the "OT" so impossible? How are the conspiracy theories, which imply that 1000s of people were involved and now covering it up, any less impossible?"

What makes the OT so impossible? As a whole, and at a very high level, it's not scientifically repeatable. Given the initial conditions (as we've been told), the resulting actions do not match up with what should have happened. The buildings should not have collapsed at the speed they collapsed, they should not have produced as much dust as they did, and certain parts of the building were too hot for too long after 9/11.

What makes a CT "any more possible"? Well, it's quite simple - there has to be an explanation that fits with everything that was observed. Whether that explanation is close with the current CTs, or something entirely different, I don't know. What I do know is that the OT is not accurate; i.e., impossible.

It's become obvious that most (if not all) of this is flying right over your head. I don't expect you to understand anything I've just said... people like you are just going to follow whatever the current public opinion is. You're incapable of thinking for yourself, or forming your own decisions based on facts/observations/etc. Have fun - go out and drink some beers and smoke some grass (or perhaps some "hashish").

Anonymous said...

I spent a couple of months believing these sort of things, I look back with regret on these times... Oh well at least it keeps the kids off the streets.

patrick cm said...

i believe things too, cool

Bored Surfer said...

No patrick, you can't handle facts. The proof that you can't is that you haven't answered my question about understanding the difference between that which burns for an extended period of time in all the vulnerable spots vs that which doesn't. The fact is that anyone does, but acknolwegding the fact shakes your little worldview.

As for your other psychiatric droppings:

"melted steel which is physically impossible" - This is one of the funnier things troofers say. Rosie O'Donnel sprouted the same garbage.

Have you heard of a town called Pittsburgh, patrick? Have you heard of the Pitssburgh Steelers? Have you wondered how they got their name? Take a dictionary and look up the word "foundry."

Yes, if it gets hot enough, a metal melts.

The fact that you and the paranoid morons like you can't grasp metal melting shows the type of intelelct that comprises the troofers.

You just stated that melted steel is a physical impossibility. You might as well deny that water can freeze into a solid.

"I know about napalm, but I have yet to see anyone use it to bring down a building" - That's because it's extarordinarily inefficient. If you can use a missile to bring down a building, it's much faster. But if you don't have access to missiles, like SAY YOU ARE A TERRORIST, then you try to use your enemy's resources against him.

Duh.

"you need more than fire to make a buidling turn into melted steel and dust" - No, if the building is big enough, all you need is heat in the right place to weaken the steel skeleton and it will fall under its own weight.

That's the other thing you twoofers can't no, WON'T grasp. To bring down a building of that size, you only needto weaken the steel.

Patrick, your position is only tenable if physical evidence means nothing. You refuse to honestly look at any fact presented to you.

And you don't have the balls to admit that you know what you are talking about. If you did, you'd answer my question instead of raving about non-existant laws of physics.

Bored Surfer said...

Here's some reading patrick can't do (it would shake his little worldview too much):

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

patrick cm said...

You know what your right. It is hard to argue with facts, hence the 911 truth movement. Buildings do not disintegrate into dust in 10 seconds, I don't care how crazy those high-jackers were. Think - Fulcrum point, laws of momentum, and path of least resistance.

patrick cm said...

this is from your link surfer

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.


that's all fine and good but if you listen to firefighters they have a different story than NIST

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gLJ_1-qMujE

hence physically impossible

9/11 makes sense if you don't know about the laws of nature.

Bored Surfer said...

Let me get this straight. Are you admitting 1) that the steel didn't have to melt for the towers to fall, it merely had to weaken, and 2) are you admitting the point I tried to drill home to you earlier about the difference between somethign sitting and burning over an extended time in a vulnerable area vs. an instantaneous explosion that thankfully wasn't in as vulnerable an area?

Let me know if you're ready to join rational humanity and we'll proceed. It's very simple, you say either no & no, or yes & yes, or yes & no, or no & yes!

Bored Surfer said...

I just can't leave his earlier remarks alone. This is too much fun. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

"It is hard to argue with facts, hence the 911 truth movement."

SNICKER. The funny thing is that you don't realize that you are right, it is hard for the 911 twoofy movement to argue with any facts, they prefer to use cockamamie bullshit when they argue.

"Buildings do not disintegrate into dust in 10 seconds"

That's odd, because on 9-11-01, the entire civilized world saw a building collapse into dust in that short of a period of time. Shorter, actually.

"Think - Fulcrum point, laws of momentum, and path of least resistance."

That wasn't even a sentence. You want to throw out some more nouns and phrases?

patrick cm said...

I thought think was a verb, i guess not in your case. LOL

I mean dude, i can't even respond to you, that's how far behind you are.

patrick cm said...

is it rational to let another human being starve to death so you can send a robot into space?

Eric said...

I have an idea, I mean lets test your law of least resistance. Heres the plane. You hold an anvil over your head and drop it. By your logic you should be perfectly safe. It should simply follow the path of least resistance and shimmy over to the side, if you have the courage of your convictions you should be doing this right now!

Eric said...

"9/11 makes sense if you don't know about the laws of nature."

Yes, I'm sure if we could actually learn everything we need to know about the 'laws of nature' from watching a handful of youtube videos twoofers would be brilliant individuals!

Sadly that isnt the case. We have real engineers for a reason.

But pray tell, tell me about how 911 twoof makes sense. I mean lets just figure out some things, a plane ... or maybe not... but lets say a remote controlled plane, we cant forget those no planers, crashed into the world trade center. In addition to this they snuck thermite, bombs or something into the building beforehand to aid in bringing the towers. Instead of a dramatic collapse after the towers hit, they waited about an hour before bringing them down.

Now they have to have the Pentagon involved, so we need faked phone calls, of course 100 some eye witnesses bribed to report seeing a jet not a missile, knocked over light poles, that no one noticed all morning, and of course they have to make sure that they knock a light pole into a taxi cab just for added authenticity. Luckily no one noticed them do that either.

Now in addition to this they have to have a plane crash in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania that everyone can quickly forget about as some sort of patriotic call to arms. Or something... probably fake, but it makes total sense, fake debris there too, and fake phone calls ... again.

Now WTC7 has to come down too, because they day would not be complete with an obscure little known building coming down to add some authenticity to it, and of course the BBC just has to be TOLD all about it as well, even though they would report on it anyway. Perhaps you can tell me how exactly 911 twoof makes sense?

patrick cm said...

If you want to talk about logic, how logical is it for UBL to pull of 9/11 in the first place?

His goal, according to him, is to get the USA military out of islamic countries. So this really smart guy decides the best way to get the USA military out of Iraq is to start a war with the USA? Hello? Does it take a genius to figure out that 9/11 is going to increase military prescence in islamic countries. Not only that , but 9/11 gives sympathy to the opposing side. It makes no strategic sense for UBL to do this if his goals are real.

Not only that but most muslims, and I have talked to real muslims in my life and they believe that UBL is a cia agent.

Well no shit he is a CIA agent, just before we voted on the patriot act, the media and some democratic senators were sent anthrax traced back to our own military claiming that it was from a jihadist. So UBL wants us to pass the patriot act? Come on.

Don't be stupid eric.

patrick cm said...

the anvil thing eric, by your logic i should

Disintergrate into dust and melted steel at the same time offering no resistance to the anvil as my body disintegrates.

patrick cm said...

Modern medicine and science has taken on a bizarre phenomenon where you cannot question the "experts" and all that they tell us is taken as the absolute truth. Sound familiar? Sounds more like religion to me.

Eric said...

Yeah cause Bin Laden has never resorted to using terrorist tactics at all in the first place. I mean the guy just gave out hugs and scheduled appearances with Oprah right?

But I note with a lot of amusement that you neatly side stepped just how stupid 911 denial is. I wonder why that is? I wonder why it is that you cannot answer or face up to the reality of 911 denial.

Islamic militants have a long history of terrorist attacks. Or do you deny that? I mean they've never ever strapped a bomb onto themselves and run into a crowded cafe...

Naw, they have never hijacked planes before. Clearly Bin Laden thought his entire plan through including how the US would react. Right?

Stop being naive, actually do some research and actually learn, dont watch some videos and then let them tell you what to think. The world does not revolve around the US, other countries have motives and other people have motives as well. Its time for you to grow up a little and face the reality of the world.

Eric said...

"Disintergrate into dust and melted steel at the same time offering no resistance to the anvil as my body disintegrates."

Well I didnt realize that you were made of steel and you were on fire, but if we want to make it a little more realistic I could take a sledge hammer to your mid section, do you think you might bend over a little when we do that?

Then when we drop that Anvil on your head, lets see what you turn into. I'll tell you what though. If you turn into a pile of dust and steel...

I'll buy you a coke.

Eric said...

"phenomenon where you cannot question the "experts" and all that they tell us is taken as the absolute truth."

Well, I suppose if we wanted to question the experts it would help to have experts of your own to back up your assertions. You know credible ones.

I mean honestly if you were going to ask questions of the NIST then perhaps you should back yourself up with more then the following:

-A film school reject
An army deserter
-A guy with a doctorate in the philosophy of science
-An engineer who has no experience in structural engineering
- A theologian
- A paranoid radio show host
- A water tester

I dunno... when faced with a choice between a guy with a doctorate and a film school reject.... it seems pretty obvious to me.... Call me nuts.

The question you should be asking yourself is why is no one questioning the fools that you buy into? Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence and they have so far failed completely to produce any.

patrick cm said...

Bin Laden is connected to Bush. If you talk to a real muslim he would quickly tell you how bullshit the whole Bin Laden thing is, most real Muslims believe that Bin Laden is a CIA agent. I met people from the middle east in the real world and I ask them questions about the reality of the world, instead of reading it in the paper.

I'm the first to admit that there is stupid stuff in the 9/11 truth movement, but did you ever for a second consider that if the government was responsible for 9/11 that they would frame such a movement to look stupid by having agents in the guise of "truthers" say a bunch of stupid shit?

If you actually knew anything about the Islamic religion you would know that real Muslims don't blow themselves up for god, christians don't and muslims don't. Remain in ingnorance though, you seem like you enjoy it.

STop calling me naive when you are naive. Your comments show a clear lack of understanding of economics, let alone whatever "reality" you live in.

Sir please the world trade centers were designed to take a plane hit, but why would you listen to that "expert" opinion.

The whole way the thing is set up is so that certain people are credible, only certain people are experts. So if anyone challenges knowledge you can just attack that person's "crediblity".

This is just a way to guard and protect knowledge. They have been doing this for years and years.

It's a scientific dictatorship where you cannot question the scientist much like you couldn't question the church in the days of old.

That's fine that you don't believe 9/11 truthers but it's wrong to act like they are crazy and have no evidence because that is a lie. If you want to keep lieing to yourself go ahead but I've been doing research on this for over a year now, and I can tell you right now that you are just wrong.

patrick cm said...

Say Bush takes out life insurance on his wife, then his friend Bin Laden kills his wife and Bush collects the life insurance, who would you think was responsible for killing the wife?

This is just like 9/11. They are so guilty it is mind numbing.

Eric said...

Is that some sort of analogy you are attempting to draw there? Cause if it is it is quite possibly the worst one I have ever heard.

Wait.. let me guess... are you really going to bring up the Silverstein and wait... I know... you're going to say he collected lots of Insurance money off it!

I'm sure you have proof of insurance fraud then right? I bet the courts will be very interested in hearing about that! I eagerly look forward to seeing you in court with your evidence for insurance fraud.

Eric said...

Bin Laden is connected to Bush.

Yeah go figure, islamic people dont necessarily want to take responsibility for the actions of the extremists in their own religion. Instead though ... not to worry, cause here comes Patrick CM to eagerly accept the blame... without any evidence!

If you actually knew anything about the Islamic religion you would know that real Muslims don't blow themselves up for god.

Yeah cause you know cutting off the genitals of women... and stoning them. Thats all about understanding. I mean they do not have any sort of history of violence at all. I mean they have never blown themselves up, thats all Israel right? They never hijack planes, they never strap bombs on themselves, they never have religious leaders call for jihad with the west, or issue Fatwas to kill christians right?

There are extremists in every religion. No one is saying every muslim is responsible, but to deny that islamic terrorists have a long history of violence is to be exactly what I called you, NAIVE. And it is a title you earned... with all these posts.

I'm curious though.. are you actually suggesting that Islamic militants do NOT have a history of violence? Did you actually look Bojinka?


Sir please the world trade centers were designed to take a plane hit, but why would you listen to that "expert" opinion.


Actually they were not, let me guess, you will produce a white paper written in 1963 that most of the designers scoffed at the notion that they could design it to withstand the impact right? Please, this is such a common lie of twoofer lore that its just comical that you would even try to bring it up. Especially in the face of comments by Leslie Robertson that directly contradict you. So why exactly would I list a white paper written 8 years before the buildings were completed and most likely had very little to do with the actual design of the building as an expert opinion?

So if anyone challenges knowledge you can just attack that person's "crediblity".

Yeah.. cause you know experts have that lovely thing called education. I suppose we could take the words of a film school reject over an actual engineer. I mean why study at all! We could just watch a you tube video which can tell us how to think! Thats perfect! I think you're on to something here. We can do away with experts in the field, and instead let someone with no experience at all tell us all about how it should work... according to him.

This is just a way to guard and protect knowledge. They have been doing this for years and years.

yeah.. I know ... imagine letting people who know something about a specific subject... be qualified to speak about it and have the credibility to do so. God ... what idiots we have been.

It's a scientific dictatorship where you cannot question the scientist

Yeah... I imagine you support Intelligent Design then?

Eric said...

That's fine that you don't believe 9/11 truthers but it's wrong to act like they are crazy and have no evidence because that is a lie.

They have evidence? !!!! Wow! When did this happen? What is it? Is it more lies about how the WTC was designed to withstand an impact of a plane? Will it be about how Ben Chertoff is really the secret evil cousin of Michael Chertoff? Perhaps you will proclaim that it is insane that a passport survived the crash? What is this new and astounding evidence that you can present? That you've failed to even present in any previous discussion but will simply blow my mind! Another paper by Steven Jones? You know... non peer reviewed?... again?

Perhaps we should take the words of a guy with a Doctorate in the History of Science instead?

I mean clearly none of the twoofer supporters have an agenda at all... right?

I've been doing research on this for over a year now,

A whole year! Wow... well you're right. Screw those damn engineers with doctorates, and decades of study, Patrick CM here has done his research over the past year and he damn well knows better then they do. He got his education from the school of Hard Knocks....

Or more likely he watched Loose Change and then sold his brain for a black t-shirt.

Yeah ... I bet I can see where your research is taking you. I can see you right now feverishly pouring over the words in Infowars and Prisonplanet, taking all of it down and swallowing it down like a good little twoofer. Yes, I'm curious though... when was the last time that you turned that oh so critical eye of yours onto those telling you what 'really happened' that day?

Eric said...

There is a part in Loose Change Final Cut that perfectly shows the silliness of the twoof movement. Its not hard to miss, its right at the very beginning. Its in fact before the Intro. its the LtW Logo. You know the part, the 'camera' starts to pull back and you see row upon row of faceless... mindless ... zombies... just standing there in the rain, their fists raised, their faces blank, not even a sign of individuality, all of them wearing those black t-shirts.

Make no mistake. Just look at the trailer on Youtube if you want, and freeze it right about three seconds in. And just look at how people like Dylan Avery see you. Just stare at it for a while. That is how the 'leaders' of the twoof movement see you. Mindless.... inanimate... zombies.

Eric said...

"It is hard to argue with facts, hence the 911 truth movement."

Can I use this ?

The 911 Truth movement, arguing with facts.

That is perfect. I'm using it!

patrick cm said...

wow eric, if you lie and ignore lots of evidence, you actually sound like you are right.

good luck with that, you cleary have no interest into discussing 9/11 so fuck off.

patrick cm said...

The World Trade Center Construction manager says that the WTC was designed to withstand the impact of a fully loaded 707 (which was the largest plane at the time) and that such an impact would to nothing to the structural integrity of the building. He even said it could withstand multiple impacts and compared it to a pencil puncturning a screen netting in a door, "It really does nothing to that screen netting"

I don't know what whit paper you are talking about , but I have a video of this guy saying this.

So looks like you want to ingore stuff like Anthrax attacks and lie to people.

Eric said...

You have a video of this guy saying that! Huh. Go figure. A video... but... you cannot even produce a NAME for this individual.

But then we have this:

The Boeing 707 that was considered in the design of the towers was estimated to have a gross weight of 263,000 pounds and a flight speed of 180 mph as it approached an airport; the Boeing 767-200ER aircraft that were used to attack the towers had an estimated gross weight of 274,000 pounds and flight speeds of 470 to 590 mph upon impact .

Oh :\ So much for Patrick's assertion.

But lets actually look at the Chief Engineer in charge of the design of the WTC. I wonder what he might say. Leslie Robertson :

"To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires."

Again.. another big "oh"

And then we have this:


"There were only two problems. The first, of course, was that no study of the impact of a 600-mile-an-hour plane ever existed. ''That's got nothing to do with the reality of what we did,'' Robertson snapped when shown the Port Authority architect's statement more than three decades later. The second problem was that no one thought to take into account the fires that would inevitably break out when the jetliner's fuel exploded, exactly as the B-25's had. And if Wien was the trade center's Cassandra, fire protection would become its Achilles' heel."

Super big "oh"

http://scott-juris.blogspot.com/The%20Height%20of%20Ambition%20Part%20Four.pdf

You know ... just in case you want to actually learn something there Patrick.

Eric said...

Its interesting to see the retreat retreat retreat you do. You say that I ignore all this evidence but you are unable to produce any of it. You claim a 'year of research' but you apparently never found out what the chief engineer said about the design of the towers.

You claim a scientific dictatorship but you clearly do not even have the most basic education in the subject you like to bloviate about or even have an understanding about it.

In the end the best you can offer as a response is a hearty 'fuck off' which I think sums it up perfectly. After all why bother presenting evidence at all when all you have to do to continue living in a paranoid fantasy world were a government is out to kill you is to just say fuck off .

To hell with evidence and scientific methods, to hell with histories of extremism and past attempts, to hell with the studies of engineers, to hell with the idiocy and lunacy of the twoofers ideas and the utter insensibility of it, to hell with all of that when you can just say fuck off .

I suppose its easier to live in a fantasy world, its much safer there and you do not have to burden yourself with facts or reality. In its own way its far more comforting for you.

adam said...

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Anonymous said...

A structural engineer from New York City just chiming in to say good work, Mike.

patrick cm said...

eric, you are not going to listen to me, maybe you will listen to george carlin

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AMqJvhmD5Yg

and to know how 9/11 is an inside job you need to know history which you don't learn in school, this is a great start.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=money+masters&sitesearch=

patrick cm said...

ah here's that second link


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&q=money+masters&total=1806&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

money masters on video google

Max Power said...

"If you talk to a real muslim he would quickly tell you how bullshit the whole Bin Laden thing is, most real Muslims believe that Bin Laden is a CIA agent."

Congrats on the nomination for DUMBEST POST OF THE YEAR.

Most real koranimals want to stuff sharia up your ass too - great group they are!

patrick cm said...

This isn’t just a war on Iraqis or Afghanis or even Arabs or Muslims. It is ultimately a war on us all. That’s because the billions and billions of dollars that are being spent on this war—the cost of tanks, rocketry, bullets, and yes, even salaries for the 125,000-plus troops—is money that will never be spent on education, on health care, on the reconstruction of crumbling public housing, or to train and place the millions of workers who have lost manufacturing jobs in the past three years alone.

The war in Iraq is, in reality, a war against the nation’s workers and the poor who are getting less and less while the big defense industries are making a killing—literally. What’s next? Iran? Syria? North Korea? Venezuela? We’ve already seen the corporate media play megaphone to the White House to build and promote a war based on lies.

adam brown said...

look this is the "diet" i told you about you should really enter the site :) bye enter the site

Eric said...

you will listen to george carlin

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAH

Holy crap. talk about ... the stupidest thing I've ever seen posted in defense of the twoof movement. HAHAHAHAH.

Dear god, first we have you admitting that the twoof movement is against facts, and now we have you trying to use Carlin, a COMEDIAN, as some sort of proof.

Honestly, that is about the stupidest possible thing ... I mean really.

Carlin's a smart guy, if you listen to the words he's saying he's very clearly not backing you up there.

As far as the rest of your 'history lesson' i suggest that you stop trying to watch internet videos as your source of education, its clearly rotting your brain.

Its honestly hard to take you seriously though, even remotely seriously because well... you tried to suggest George Carlin is somehow more knowledgeable then several hundred engineers on why the WTC collapsed.

What a buffoon.

Eric said...

Honestly Patrick you dance around here like a clown with no head. You failed to address any of the very pertinent questions I aimed at you and have avoided them all. Each time I point out the flaws in your 'research' you crawl further into the hole and at long last pull out one of the most ridiculous statements made by a twoofer in a long time.

But I see part of your problem, its that you allow yourself to be led by the likes of Alex Jones, Dylan Avery. You let a guy with a doctorate in the philosophy of science (liberal arts degree anyone?) tell you what to think.

Let me clear something up for you here. You are not a free thinker, you are not a rebel, you are not some patriot raging against the machine of corporate America. You have sought comfort in a theory that has no proof and you have surrendered your thought processes at the door.

Make no mistake on this, you are not a skeptic, you are not a patriot. You are a gullible and naive individual who would believe that the US did not land on the mooon. That Oswald could not possibly have acted alone, and that there is a bridge for sale in San Francisco.

So here is your challenge, concrete evidence, not from a COMEDIAN, but say from a respected engineer who has his work peer reviewed and put out in a respected journal. That it is backed up by actual science, and does not leap to conclusions.

Reality Patrick, its what defines this world. Not pseudo science, not some theologian says, or what some army deserter says. You want to believe fanciful theories without evidence, you go right ahead. Don't expect the rest of the world to not call you a naive child though.

patrick cm said...

No , give me evidence that the offical story is true, otherwise you are a hypocrite.

I would love for someone to "prove" me wrong, that's why I come here, you think I like being a rebel? Shows how much you know. IF you aren't going to put information in your comments you shouldn't comment.

Also all the words you put in my mouth are wrong.

So go ahead and prove me wrong with all the evidence that was destroyed.

I wonder why you think that I'm being conned and you aren't?


See look man "Don't expect the rest of the world to not call you a naive child though."

The sole purpose you believe what you do is because you make decesions on your beliefs based on what other people think of you. That won't get you far.


And if you want to dis my internet video, why don't you watch it and point out where it's wrong instead of making a smear comment like a Bill O'reiley.

Funny you want concrete evidence from me, but anything scrolling across the televison apparently doesn't require any concrete evidence for you to believe. Jeez in a world like that, someone could say, blow up two towers and get away with it.

Eric said...

No , give me evidence that the offical story is true, otherwise you are a hypocrite.


Oh please, spare me. What a silly bunch of BS this is. I have given you evidence, and if you want more then read the entirity of the NIST report and then pay attention to it. Hell just read the FAQs, or even the PM article. You are like a child with this statement, you continue to live up to every expectation that I label you as and you do so with this self satisified smirk on your face like you actually think it will prove something.

Here is a fact for you, the reason you do not believe the 'official story' is because you were told a bunch of lies. The first thing you are going to have to do is let go of every single one of those lies, but you seem unwilling to do that.

I've shown you that many of the things that you believe in are nothing but lies, but yet you still persist with many of them, and despite having been shown that they were lies, you continue to embrace what you said.


I would love for someone to "prove" me wrong,

It has been done over and over. But as long as you persist in believing in lies told to you there is not much to do.


that's why I come here, you think I like being a rebel?

You are not a rebel, you're just a gullible fool.

Shows how much you know.

Considerably more then you.


IF you aren't going to put information in your comments you shouldn't comment.


oh a typical twoofer here, we finally get down to it. All you have managed to put into your comments is a bunch of lies fed to you by Alex Jones and a comical set of videos, one of which is George Carlin basically blowing off twoofers. :eyeroll:


Also all the words you put in my mouth are wrong.

Not really, it was indeed you who said this wasn't it?

"It is hard to argue with facts, hence the 911 truth movement."

What words did I put into your mouth that were wrong?

So go ahead and prove me wrong with all the evidence that was destroyed.

None of the evidence was destroyed. See this is another example of the lies that you buy into. Much of the evidence was moved for the rescue efforts, but it was not destroyed. Considerable pieces of it were stored and saved and remain today.

I imagine though that to you the need to keep everything exactly the same was more important then searching for survivors.


I wonder why you think that I'm being conned and you aren't?

Because as I have shown you over and over, most of what you believe is a lie. Like the statement above. You honestly believe that they shipped out and destroyed everything? Are you honestly so utterly STUPID? And I use that in the very boldest means possible.

And honestly, the story of the twoofers makes NO FRIGGING SENSE. On one hand you say, well it was a big secret, but on the other hand everyone in the world would have to be involved, and their closest brothers. yet they pulled this off without leaving behind any concrete evidence.

If you want an even more detailed reasoning look up The Hopeless Stupid of 911 Conspiracies. Its a wonderful article that points out the general idiocy that is associate with the twoof movement and the lack of intelligence that goes along with it. Or if you want a more critical one that looks at the level of intelligence that one has to have to believe in all the various conspiracies such as chemtrails, JFK, and so on then try Seeing the Unseen, Pt2.

patrick cm said...

While you're at it, explain to me the 17% rise in production of heroin in Afghanistan,while here in the States heroin prices have plummeted,coupled with the SOP that if you buy drugs you are supporting terrorism?

Maybe you could explain the CIA plane that crashed with 4 tons of coke, or about the mainstream media reporter Gary Webb who exposed the CIA drug ring and was fired and unable to get another job, 8 years later all his allegations were proven to be true in an offical investigation and then he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head twice?

And then you can keep making fun of me and defending drug dealers you asshole.

Maybe if you don't scope everything into one event like 9/11 or JFK you can actually know what happens in the world.

Eric said...

explain to me the 17% rise in production of heroin in Afghanistan

O_O

Well thats pretty easy, there boyo. Considering that Afghanistan is a supplier of heroin, it would not be to hard to figure out that they are now more able to produce heroin.


while here in the States heroin prices have plummeted,

O_O

You do understand the basic economic principle of supply and demand. IE there is more heroin and greater supply and as such the price goes down. Riiiiiiiiiiight?

Honestly, I have no clue why you're asking for a basic education in supply and demand.


you buy drugs you are supporting terrorism?

*faceplants*

What in GOD'S name are you talking about? Jeezus christ, talk about a completely off kilter bit of idiocy here that most people could give less then two craps about. What are you a drug user or something? It would explain a lot, and it would really explain this thought process that you're suffering here.



Maybe you could explain the CIA plane that crashed with 4 tons of coke,


Now you're going to tie the Iran Contra affair into all of this?

or about the mainstream media reporter Gary Webb who exposed the CIA drug ring and was

Actually Gary Webb did not do any of what you claim here. He blamed the Contras for the drug trade, and implied that the CIA at least knew about it, Webb never asserted that the CIA directly aided drug dealers to raise money for the Contras, but he did document that the CIA was aware of the cocaine transactions and the large shipments of cocaine into the U.S. by the Contra personnel This article appeared in 1996.

fired and unable to get another job,

Incorrect he was not fired and remained at San Jose Mercury Post for sometime afterwards. And after leaving he went to work at the California Assembly Speaker's Office of Member Services as a consultant. In 2003 he was hired by the Sacramento News and review after being laid off 2003 from his job as a consultant as part of the standard house cleaning that comes about when a new speaker takes over.


8 years later

Actually 2 years later.


all his allegations were proven to be true in an offical investigation

Which are not the ones you credit him for here.

and then he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head twice?

At least you got one part of this right. Of course your implication here is incorrect. Even a most basic research into the matter yielded me with considerable information.

First his wife, Webb's ex-wife, Sue Bell, discounted such theories Tuesday, saying the 49-year-old Webb had been distraught for some time over his inability to get a job at another major newspaper.

"The way he was acting it would be hard for me to believe it was anything but suicide," Bell said.

She said that before he died Webb wrote and mailed notes to family members and placed his baby shoes in his mother's shed.

He had apparently laid out his driver's license before taking his father's .38-caliber pistol, which he kept in his nightstand, to shoot himself.

Coroner Robert Lyons said his office had been swamped with calls. "It's unusual in a suicide case to have two shots," he said, "but it has been done in the past, and it is in fact a distinct possibility."


*slap*

What exactly did you think your little exercise into the Iran Contra affair and beyond would do? Point out your ability to believe anything anyone says and run with it? In fact ... your little jaunt into this confirms that you have not even DONE THE MOST BASIC research into the matter! Holy crap. Even the most basic bit of research would've turned up at least the correct dates, but you couldn't even get that right.


And then you can keep making fun of me and defending drug dealers you asshole.


I'll keep making fun of you because its very easy to do. I suppose though if you want to apply labels, I could just say, well you could keep denying reality and defending terrorists. But thats not really fair is it? No not really.

Eric said...

See, Patrick I'll clue you in on something. And let me know when it hits home okay?

I realize that you are a lost cause, but my comments are not aimed at you, they are aimed at people who are not. Any reasonable mind would look at the list of experts that side with you and then think to themselves, well... only an idiot would believe a water tester.

Anyone with a sensible thought in their head would review all of the evasions you made, the silly accusations that were later proven wrong, and see you ... but more importantly, see your "911 Truth Movement" for what it is; a god awful joke.

You allow me here to demonstrate a very important facet, you give me the ability to point out beyond a shadow of a doubt the utter stupidity of the twoof movement, the insensibility of it and the lunacy of it. How lacking in evidence, how lacking in general smarts it is. I mean for me the highlight that actually made me laugh out loud here at my desk, was when you tried to pass off George Carlin blowing off twoofers, as some sort of credible ... i dunno? What did you hope to accomplish there?

Maybe if you don't scope everything into one event like 9/11 or JFK you can actually know what happens in the world.


I am probably more aware then you are about what goes on in the world. I have to admit though that I do not really follow the pricing of heroin on the streets that closely but thats mainly because I have no real interest in it. But I think I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I am more aware of what is happening in the world then you. I am a true skeptic, unlike ... you.... the very simple reason that I do not buy into 911 denial is because it.... MAKES NO SENSE.

Zero. Zilch. None. To believe it you have to shut down the thinking part of your brain. Why is that no twoofer can answer me when I push them for a coherent theory of what they believe happened that day? Its because to answer it would push force them to the realization that what they have been saying makes NO SENSE at all.

Just think of this one tiny aspect of it, the government murdered 3000 people.

But then could not bring itself to murder 3 losers? But the reason that the scientific community doesnt come forward is because they fear for their lives?

Only someone devoid of any intelligence could possibly follow that train of logic and NOT burst out laughing at the insanity of it.

Thats just one aspect of it. How about this one?

The BBC reported their part of the script to early and reported the collapse of the WTC7.

O_O

Dear god.

How deranged do you have to be? Do you even have a clue about the secret nature of conspiracies? Now the BBC had to be told about the complex of wtc7, because otherwise ... they would have what reported on it when it actually happened ? In fact involving the BBC and by inference the rest of the networks, all it did was open the supposed conspirators to even MORE people. And strangely NOT one single person has come forward??!!?!!?

Oh right they're afraid for their lives.

But yet theres Dylan Avery still alive and breathing?

.....

Honestly. How anyone could buy into 911 twoof despite the mountains of evidence AGAINST it is beyond me.

Eric said...

The sole purpose you believe what you do is because you make decesions on your beliefs based on what other people think of you. That won't get you far.

HAHAHAH. Oh dear god, life lessons from a guy who believes whatever a film school reject, and a paranoid radio show host says to believe. Its a shocking shame, but here let me give you a life lesson of my own. Ok?

What you engage in is little more then gullibility, skepticism is a fine and handy thing, and I am more then skeptical of everything that any politician says, but instead of buying into extremist viewpoints that have absolutely no evidence to back them up, I look for the truth. And the truth is rarely as convoluted as you try to make it out to be. You are not a skeptic, you are a gullible naive fool.

End of life lesson.


And if you want to dis my internet video, why don't you watch it and point out where it's wrong instead of making a smear comment like a Bill O'reiley.

I am not going to sit around and waste my time watching some piece of propaganda, I would not send you to watch O'Rielly as proof of anything so spare me some silly piece of trash that you ran across that you believe because it holds up your rigid belief system. Instead, why do you not actually pull your head out of your ass, and form a coherent argument. What I get instead is what I typically get of twoofers: the same lame lines, same lame videos, and the same stupidity reiterated over and over.

Its interesting that you bring up O'Rielly though, because in many ways you share his qualities. If you want to call it that. But like him you cling to these rigid belief systems, and you are implaccable in them, Immune to outside evidence, and despite often being shown just how wrong you are, you instead rise to a higher pitch as if shouting loudly will actually deny reality.

You and him may be on polar sides of the political belief spectrum, but in terms of attitudes and beliefs you are very similar.


Funny you want concrete evidence from me,

Thats right, its that credibility thing.

but anything scrolling across the televison apparently doesn't require any concrete evidence for you to believe.

Not at all correct, in fact it is the weight of all the evidence that supports what actually happened that day is the reason I believe it. I did not spend 15 minutes on line and form a belief system from it like you did. I looked at the mass of scientific evidence, who formed it and then who performed the work, compared it to say.... A paranoid delusional with a radio program said and then burst out laughing at the silliness of the twoof movement.

Jeez in a world like that, someone could say, blow up two towers and get away with it.


Highly doubtful in this world. In fact if there was the slightest bit of evidence to support you a lot more people then the measley 4.6% of americans might actually side with you. However... well... theres that lack of evidence thing again. But you have to believe that dont you? You have to believe that everyone else in the country, 95% of us are all just naive idiots sitting around. Because if that werent true, then that would mean that it is you instead who is the idiot. That it is you instead who bought whole heartedly into something that was not remotely true. And as such... well then, it does not speak very highly of you. In fact.... I think you show your true colors with this statement more then anything else. You show your hubris at this point. It is utterly necessary for you to believe that everyone else just believes without any evidence because for you to actually believe anything else would be to admit that you are a naive and gullible. And you are incapable of facing that possibility.

The problem is that you are basically an idiot at heart I think. Foolish, naive, and childlike in your adoration of conspiracy. Its not an uncommon belief, after JFK came out a lot of people felt the same way, all of a sudden we were in possession of some sort of secret knowledge that we werent supposed to have. It was a grand feeling. And then the reality set in. And at some point in you life, the reality is going to set in with you. You're going to have to sit back and think, 'well wait a second, this really doesnt make any sense.'

You have yet to provide any sort of evidence to back up your claims, I have the weight of the scientific community behind me, who do you have? Oh some guy who made a video.

But this government, that you accused of murdering 3000 people balked at committing 3 more murders? Is that what you are saying?

If it balked at 3 more murders, then where are the hundreds of other professionals who could come out to side with twoofers?

So why do you not have a concrete theory? Was it a plane that crashed into the building? Was it hijacked? Do islamic extremists not have a history of violence? Was it a plane that crashed into the Pentagon? What happened at Shanksville?

Let me clear one thing up for you, almost everything that you believe happened on 911, at least from what I have seen here, is a lie.

No buildings collapsed at free fall speed into their own footprints, NORAD did not stand down, bomb sniffing dogs weren't removed, Marvin Bush wasn't in charge of security. WTC7 did not just simply fall over, the towers were not built to withstand multiple 767 impacts. The laws of physics were not suspended. In fact none of what forms your 'belief system' is remotely true. And so for you to actually accept evidence you're going to have to discard all of that.

So perhaps you can point me to some statements that I have made that are incorrect? And once we get past that we can address who has more credibility? You or me? Me who has posted nothing but facts and reality, and you who have bought into every cheap line that Alex Jones tells you to buy into.

You were on the right track when you said the following:

"It is hard to argue with facts, hence the 911 truth movement."


Read it, just read what you said here. This is the only true statement that you have said and a better quote to sum up the entirety of the twoof movement is harder to find. In this simple little statement you have created the perfect solilquy to 911 twoof. Its swan song and the reason for its being. To argue with facts.

patrick cm said...

Eric you are hilarious.

Why do you defend drug dealers and pedophiles and terrorists?

What is your excuse for Barry Seal? I'd love to hear that one.

"Just think of this one tiny aspect of it, the government murdered 3000 people.

But then could not bring itself to murder 3 losers?"

Oh so they should murder these 3 losers so idiots like you can't bring up this point to make toofers look bad? And not only that they'd be handing us a lot of cridibility. Is your brain this limited boy?

How's this for logic,

My name is osama bin laden, I want USA out of islamic countries, I will then attack the USA so they have a reason to come to Islamic countries. FUCKING GENIUS BUDDY!

You say there is mountains of evidence but you provide none, yes i'm aware of 911myths.com NIST faqs and PM articles. NO FUCKING EVIDENCE IN ANY OF THIS SHIT YOU FUCK< its the equavilant of watching a video from 3 film drop outs.

THere is mountains of hypocricy in your words.

"strangely NOT one single person has come forward," Obviously people have come forward, hence 9/11 truth movement but oh that's right, anyone who comes forward you dismiss so then your delusion works.

The fact that you believe a person will commit suicide by two gunshot wounds to the head, because you read it in the media, just goes to show you that people will believe anything and that a 9/11 cover up is possible.

If you think other people are gullible naive fools and that you are some how impervious to this aspect of humanity, shows how arrogant, self rightous, and wrong you are. I admit I'm brainwashed, I think everyone is, and I agree that truthers are often more brainwashed than the general public. I didn't come to these conclusions because I saw internet videos or because of alex jones, I didn't know about any of these things. I believe in 9/11 truth for one simple reason, the official story makes zero logical sense.

Alot of the loose change guys and Alex Jones piss me off too man. Alex Jones get stuff wrong and I research things, for instance the Owl at bohemian grove isn't moloch but the goddess Columbia. Hence District of Columbia. The Columbia pictures logo and the statue of liberty are the same goddess, that why they look similar. The egyptions called her Isis.

"I am not going to sit around and waste my time watching some piece of propaganda, I would not send you to watch O'Rielly as proof of anything so spare me some silly piece of trash that you ran across that you believe because it holds up your rigid belief system. Instead, why do you not actually pull your head out of your ass, and form a coherent argument. What I get instead is what I typically get of twoofers: the same lame lines, same lame videos, and the same stupidity reiterated over and over. "

I sent you a video about economics, most people don't know shit about them and they are important to understand how the conspiracy works.

I absolutely do not cling to rigid belief systems, you keep saying what i do and what i don't do, and you are flat out wrong about all the assumpstions you make about me.

I HATE BELIEF SYSTEMS, THEY ARE BS!

I'm not on any side of anything other than humanity. I'm not a 9/11 truther, I'm not part of any truth movement.

"Not at all correct, in fact it is the weight of all the evidence that supports what actually happened that day is the reason I believe it. I did not spend 15 minutes on line and form a belief system from it like you did. I looked at the mass of scientific evidence, who formed it and then who performed the work, compared it to say.... A paranoid delusional with a radio program said and then burst out laughing at the silliness of the twoof movement. "

I'm glad you have an opinion, my opinion is that the evidence fits the 9/11 truth story more than the official story.

I'd say 100% of us are all just naive idiots sitting around. See that way rich people have a better chance to take advatage of us.

I believe 9/11 truth w/o any evidence, you believe official story w/o any evidence.

"You have yet to provide any sort of evidence to back up your claims, I have the weight of the scientific community behind me, who do you have? "

The claim of consensus is often envoked when the science is not great enough on its own. For instance no one says that there is a consensus for the distance between the earth and the sun, no one would think to say such a thing.

"But this government, that you accused of murdering 3000 people balked at committing 3 more murders? Is that what you are saying?"

See this is all you got , so sad, what they are gonna kill them so people like you have nothing to say, so you are like well ya they killed those guy so they must have been doing something right like GHANDI, MLK, JFK, JOHN LENNON.

"So why do you not have a concrete theory? Was it a plane that crashed into the building? Was it hijacked? Do islamic extremists not have a history of violence? Was it a plane that crashed into the Pentagon? What happened at Shanksville? "

I don't care about this divide and conquer bullshit.

And yes the laws of physics were suspended on 9/11, YOU WONT SEE THAT ON 911 myths dot com.

God forbid people know anything about physics, but hey at least they know a lot about sports and celebrities cause you know, this is a normal world and all, naturally evovling.

Now fuck off, you are a waste of energy, tell me something I don't fucking know.

patrick cm said...

Hey ERIC maybe if you become the Mayor of New York City, I listen to you over john hylan.

Hylan's most famous words against "the interests" was the following speech, made in 1922, while he was the sitting Mayor of New York City:

"...The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over City, State, and nation... It seizes in its long and powerful tentacles our executive officers, our legislative bodies, our schools, our courts, our newspapers, and every agency created for the public protection..."

"To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interest and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes."

"They practically control both parties, write political platforms, make catspaws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations, and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business..."

"These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of the newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government...."

This "invisible government", Hylan and others argued, exercised its control of the US Government through the Federal Reserve.

But then maybe I wouldn't, I sure as hell wouldn't listen to "I like to wear panties" Rduy Guilliani.

patrick cm said...

The USA funds Hitler, Marx, Lenin, and Osama Bin Laden. That sounds like a con job if I've ever heard one. This con job also rakes in considerably more money to what truther con men rake in. In fact the truther money produced is probably no recognizable in comparison.

patrick cm said...

As for the reason that the scientific community doesnt come forward.

1. An event like this has never happened and there is no data as a reference point.

2. Look what happens to people who do come forward.

3. The military has access to technology the scientist do not, and it is likely that said technology could be used to fool the scientists who are unawares of it's possibilities.

Eric said...

Sad but typical response. You're starting to become a bit more unravelled in your responses but thats okay patrick. Honestly though, your paranoia only feeds itself.

1. An event like this has never happened and there is no data as a reference point.

Huh! Wow, congratulations there may be some hope for you yet. See here we have an admission of ignorance on your part, the realization that wait a second... so who do you turn to in this case? Why scientists, engineers, physicists and the like. But you catagorically dismiss them.

2. Look what happens to people who do come forward.

You mean they are treated to the same scrutiny as everyone else with outrageous claims? The problem is that these people who do come forward like Jones lose much of their credibility because they do not follow the scientific principles.

3. The military has access to technology the scientist do not, and it is likely that said technology could be used to fool the scientists who are unawares of it's possibilities.

This is just a load of clap trap here, a way to sort of seal yourself off to criticism and shrug off point out flaws in your arguments.

Well! Its obviously some sort of super advanced technology ... thats why we cant detect it. its some 'sooper sekrit' military special weapon!

Please. This 'sooper sekrit' weapon would somehow fool all the engineers and scientists in the world into thinking that two buildings were hit by planes and resulting fires caused their collapse?

o_O

Thats some technology.

Eric said...

Hey ERIC maybe if you become the Mayor of New York City, I listen to you over john hylan.


Congrats on digging up a speech from 1922.

*thumbs up*

Totally relevant today.

Hylan was a populist and seemed to rail against big business and big government, which were popular chords back in 1922 by the way. And they are themes that are popular today as well. Do you assign all quotes from 1922 equal importance or something?

But then maybe I wouldn't, I sure as hell wouldn't listen to "I like to wear panties" Rduy Guilliani.

Wow even more relevant! You totally present lots of evidence to back up your assertions here!

Eric said...

< Eric you are hilarious.

That must be why you've become such a whiney little bitch.

Why do you defend drug dealers and pedophiles and terrorists?

Do i? Last time I checked all I was doing was defending the truth, I could care less about Bush and his administration. All I'm defending are the NIST and the tons of scientists who worked on the investigation. Politics have no role here. Perhaps thats why you are deluded though. You've let your hatred for the current administration cloud your thinking. I notice a lot of Bush hate on the side of twoofers. Personally while I dislike Bush and his administration, I do not like to engage in fantasy because of it.

Oh so they should murder these 3 losers so idiots like you can't bring up this point to make toofers look bad?

I think you're becoming seriously deranged here. Its starting to become just sad. I mean really sad right now. They should kill 3 losers to make sure their sooper dooper sekrit doesnt get out.

And not only that they'd be handing us a lot of cridibility.

Would they now? I mean how would you know about it if they had killed them before hand? Obviously a big secret evil government out to keep its secret should allow three losers to create a documentary exposing them. thats all part of the plan right?


Is your brain this limited boy?


No clearly yours is though. Dear god, can you actually THINK? The government, this all powerful sooper sekrit entity that you think it is, could somehow not stop 3 losers from releasing a poorly done 'documentary' on the internet? Huh. Well... according to twoofers the sooper evil sekrit government is either the most competent and thoroughly focused government to ever have graced the world, and at the same time they are the most incompetent bunch of boobs who couldnt stop an army deserter and his two buddies from releasing a video on the internet! Then again you DO think that they faked a suicide by shooting two bullets into Gary Webb.

How's this for logic,

This ought to be good for a laugh.

My name is osama bin laden, I want USA out of islamic countries, I will then attack the USA so they have a reason to come to Islamic countries. FUCKING GENIUS BUDDY!

Yeah, I'm sure moments before those suicide bombers run into the crowded cafes of Israel, their last thoughts will be, 'this will teach them to get out of my country.

I wonder if Japan before they attacked Pearl Harbor thought the same thing before launching those planes.

Or Hitler before he decided to open that second front. Or maybe Napoleon when he invaded Russia.

You're looking at it with 20/20 hindsight. yay for you! You can see things with a western mind and a western attitude.

*slap*

There ... that needed to be done. Bin Laden's goal was most likely to deal an economic and psychological blow to the country.

You say there is mountains of evidence but you provide none, yes i'm aware of 911myths.com NIST faqs and PM articles. NO FUCKING EVIDENCE IN ANY OF THIS SHIT YOU FUCK< its the equavilant of watching a video from 3 film drop outs.

It is? huh.... and yet if you actually read the NIST report it contains a break down of the features and the collapses. The sites like the NIST FAQ, the PM article and 911myths, debunking911 and others are to debunk the foolishness of twoofers, and the absurdity of their assertions.


Obviously people have come forward, hence 9/11 truth movement but oh that's right, anyone who comes forward you dismiss so then your delusion works.

Not really, I dismiss them because they have no credibility on the subject. Why would I listen to a guy who changes his story a lot? Or 3 film school rejects? Or a theologian? Jones? A guy with no specialty in the subject matter at hand?

Why in gods name WOULD you listen to them on the matter? Its a matter of credibility, and the twoof movement has NONE. Zero Zilch.


The fact that you believe a person will commit suicide by two gunshot wounds to the head, because you read it in the media, just goes to show you that people will believe anything and that a 9/11 cover up is possible.

Except of course that it has happened many times before. That Gary Webb prepared for his suicide before hand, his wife dismisses it, his actions beforehand dismisses it, and the reality that there are sometimes suicides that do occur with two gunshot wounds. See, I don't believe it just because I read it, I believe it because there is a history of it.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/aarvcjmr2k2qd8qh/

It is ... in fact... your belief that it HAD to be a murder and done by the FBI/CIA or whoever in retaliation for articles that had 8 years earlier been proven true, that points to the gullibility that I accuse you of. To you... the very fact that it was two gun shot wounds makes it murder.

Except of course that if it was supposed to be a fake suicide, done by professionals, dont you think they would have had the smarts to only use one gunshot? Or were these the stupidest professional assassins ever sent ? Are you suggesting that the coronor, the police department, his ex wife, and family members were all part of the big conspiracy? Thats what we call the "OH SNAP" statement.


If you think other people are gullible naive fools and that you are some how impervious to this aspect of humanity, shows how arrogant, self rightous, and wrong you are.

Philosophical discussions aside, I do not think every other person is a gullible naive fool. In this specific case though I believe you are, and the small 4.6% of the population that has let their mind drift away enough to actually buy into 911 denial.


I admit I'm brainwashed,

Well admitting to your problem is the first step in overcoming it.

I think everyone is,

And there was such hope for you =\

and I agree that twoofers are often more brainwashed than the general public.

But a glimmer of hope. And a courtesy spelling correction.

I didn't come to these conclusions because I saw internet videos or because of alex jones, I didn't know about any of these things. I believe in 9/11 twoof for one simple reason, the official story makes zero logical sense.

Not really, the official story makes plenty of sense. Especially compared with the alternative, the 911 twoof version. There is no intelligence in there, it is the lowest sort of conspiracy theory, one that does not provide an alternate theory or anything.

You say it doesnt make sense? Based off what? Your position of incredulity that Bin Laden could've thought it would help? Honestly, do you deny that terrorist attacks happen all over the world?

Are you even certain that what Bin Laden's goal was to force us to pull out of Middle Eastern countries? Or maybe it was to strike a blow against the US, or to put on a show of force? Or a psychological attack, a economic attack?

I absolutely do not cling to rigid belief systems,

You most certainly do, your unwillingess to let go of your fantasy about Gary Webb definitely shows an inability to move beyond your set of beliefs about something.

you keep saying what i do and what i don't do,

And hit home with surprising regularity it seems. you failed to even do proper research into Gary Webb's career and death properly. Or do you deny that? You leap at conclusions, and you believe just about anything anyone tells you ... as long as its critical of the government. You pick and choose.

and you are flat out wrong about all the assumpstions you make about me.

I beg to differ.



I HATE BELIEF SYSTEMS, THEY ARE BS!

And yet everyone has one.

I'm not on any side of anything other than humanity.

Cue violins.

I'm not a 9/11 twoofer,

Denier then.

I'm not part of any twoof movement.

Then why the embracing of their lies?


I'm glad you have an opinion, my opinion is that the evidence fits the 9/11 twoof story more than the official story.

And what evidence would that be? You mean the complete LACK of evidence that supports 911 denial? That evidence?

I'd say 100% of us are all just naive idiots sitting around. See that way rich people have a better chance to take advatage of us.

Those violins are swelling now. Let me clue you in a bit of reality and hope at the same time.

Get over it. Things will or will not change based of what people do, however engaging in fantasy and thinking up absurd and utterly ridiculous plots about a government out to get you is not one of those ways that will lead to change.

I believe 9/11 twoof w/o any evidence,

An admission finally.

you believe official story w/o any evidence.

Except for the scads of it backing it up, and of course the work of the NIST, UL, FDNY, Purdue University. And all the engineering firms that worked with the NIST, and beyond. I mean ... no evidence? Not in my book, I'll take the word of people with degrees from various sources over ... well... a guy with a degree in the history of science.


The claim of consensus is often envoked when the science is not great enough on its own.

Not really, but I'm curious then do you support Intelligent Design being taught in a school?

For instance no one says that there is a consensus for the distance between the earth and the sun, no one would think to say such a thing.

Piss poor analogy, as it is not really a hypothesis of the distance between the earth and the sun.


See this is all you got

No... clearly you need to go back and reread what I wrote.

so sad, what they are gonna kill them so people like you have nothing to say,

So they shot a guy ... according to you... 8 years after his story was proven true.... out of what retaliation? But ... they're NOT going to kill someone who risks exposing their super sekrit cabal of thousands of followers?

so you are like well ya they killed those guy so they must have been doing something right like GHANDI, MLK, JFK, JOHN LENNON.

John Lennon? JFK? Oh dear god. You are a LOON. A frigging LOON. All of these were what ? Cleverly done assassinations? Purposely carried about by who? The illumanti in its quest for global domination?


I don't care about this divide and conquer bullshit.

Translation: Patrick can't answer any of them.

And yes the laws of physics were suspended on 9/11, YOU WONT SEE THAT ON 911 myths dot com.

They were?! Great, please provide me with your detailed analysis as to how they were suspended, also I imagine there are a lot of phycists who would be very interested in your work. I'm sure that your 30 minutes of looking at 911 denial websites has given you valuable and irrefutable evidence that the laws of physics were broken that day. if only everyone could gain all there is to know about physics from reading a website on the internet. Why... lets just close up MIT.

God forbid people know anything about physics,

Yeah, they could just read something on a 911 denial website and not bother to spend any time researching it.

but hey at least they know a lot about sports and celebrities

Good for you?

cause you know, this is a normal world and all, naturally evovling.

Can someone provide a translation here? I think you're coming off your meds.

Now fuck off,

I'm stung I tell you! Stung! I mean how can I possibly survive after being told to fuck off by someone without even the wherewithal to know that this is NOT HIS BLOG. And you call me arrogant.

you are a waste of energy,

yeah its hard arguing with me. Especially when all you can summon up is some rhetoric and fairly easy to disprove theories

tell me something I don't fucking know.

I wouldnt even know where to start with that one.

patrick cm said...

Oh, so what happened to no one comes forward no evidence, um is that because you brush of speechs in 1922, even though it wasn't that long ago and people are still alive who lived back then?

Woudln't you think things would have gotten worse since 1922, i mean the news doesn't even mention the mafia at this point.

But how can I argue with you eric, you know more about politics than the people who are actually in politics.

What about this?

"There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution."
Aldous Huxley, Tavistock Group, California Medical School, 1961

So wait he said that in 1961 so we should ignore this.

Or when eisenhower warned against the military industrial complex, he wasn't talking about 9/11 was he. Even though the military industrial complex is making a literal killing, it is not related or relevant today that our president warned us.

Panty man picture here:

http://images.google.com/images?q=rudy+giuliani+drag&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

patrick cm said...

I think you're becoming seriously deranged here. Its starting to become just sad. I mean really sad right now. They should kill 3 losers to make sure their sooper dooper sekrit doesnt get out.

NO IDIOT THEY SHOULD MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE LOSERS AND DISCREDIT THEM< KILLING THEM WILL GIVE THEM CREDIBILITY YOU RETARD

patrick cm said...

Yeah, I'm sure moments before those suicide bombers run into the crowded cafes of Israel, their last thoughts will be, 'this will teach them to get out of my country.

I wonder if Japan before they attacked Pearl Harbor thought the same thing before launching those planes.

Or Hitler before he decided to open that second front. Or maybe Napoleon when he invaded Russia.

You're looking at it with 20/20 hindsight. yay for you! You can see things with a western mind and a western attitude.

*slap*

what the fuck is this? lol name dropping?

patrick cm said...

Bin Laden's goal was most likely to deal an economic and psychological blow to the country.

oh most likely? huh um why don't you find out his goal like i did and then you won't show your ignorance.

patrick cm said...

Except of course that if it was supposed to be a fake suicide, done by professionals, dont you think they would have had the smarts to only use one gunshot? Or were these the stupidest professional assassins ever sent ? Are you suggesting that the coronor, the police department, his ex wife, and family members were all part of the big conspiracy? Thats what we call the "OH SNAP" statement.

"Oh snap" have you ever shot a gun in ur life you fucking clown? OH has no one ever been killed and then they ruled it a suicide to protect people? Ya fucking right. And he just happens to be one guy that is exposing cocaine corruption. Please.

patrick cm said...

And hit home with surprising regularity it seems. you failed to even do proper research into Gary Webb's career and death properly. Or do you deny that? You leap at conclusions, and you believe just about anything anyone tells you ... as long as its critical of the government. You pick and choose.

No, I read all the same shit you posted before idiot, but that doesn't mean i just believe whatever i read like you FUMCINGVLK D do

IGNORING BARRY SEAL

IGNORING BARRY SEAL

patrick cm said...

NIST Engineer John Gross Caught Lying

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gLJ_1-qMujE

patrick cm said...

Not really, but I'm curious then do you support Intelligent Design being taught in a school?

No I do not, but I'm curious, do you also believe in evolution without any evidence for the belief? Because the evidence suggests that evolution isn't true, since you know, humans beings just appear out of nowhere in the fossil record. And a lot of attempts at creating fossils of evolving humans have been exposed as hoaxs. The fossil record goes against evolution.

patrick cm said...

For instance no one says that there is a consensus for the distance between the earth and the sun, no one would think to say such a thing.

Piss poor analogy, as it is not really a hypothesis of the distance between the earth and the sun.

Really you should email Michael Crichton and tell him that since you know more than a guy with his education. I stole that line from him.

patrick cm said...

They were?! Great, please provide me with your detailed analysis as to how they were suspended, also I imagine there are a lot of phycists who would be very interested in your work. I'm sure that your 30 minutes of looking at 911 denial websites has given you valuable and irrefutable evidence that the laws of physics were broken that day. if only everyone could gain all there is to know about physics from reading a website on the internet. Why... lets just close up MIT.

If you watch the collapse, you can see objects being fired out of the WTC buildings with an upward horizontal force, this isn't possible from gravity because gravity pulls down. Their should be no force going up and out but there is.

patrick cm said...

The world trade center was initiated in 1960 by a Lower Manhattan Association created and chaired by David Rockefeller, who had the original idea of building the Center, with strong backing from the then-New York governor, his brother Nelson Rockefeller

Wow what a coincidence for Mr. Hylan words.

"To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller-Standard Oil interest and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes."

Oh i'm sure it's unrelated. ANd I"M sure I ll get attacked for insinuating it isn't.

patrick cm said...

*slap* fucking asshole

patrick cm said...

Remember Iraq war one? Remember the baby incubator hoax? no? If you did you probably wouldn't give truthers such a hard time.

A key event in generating momentum for the first U.S. War on Iraq, “Operation Desert Storm” was a fraudulent report of the murder of Kuwaiti babies by Iraqi soldiers. On October 10, 1990, the U.S. Congressional Human Rights Caucus held a hearing on the subject of Iraqi human rights violations. The centerpiece of the event was the emotional testimony of a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only by her first name, Nayirah. Her full name was supposedly being kept secrect to protect her from Iraqi reprisals. The girl relayed a shocking story while sobbing.

"I volunteered at the al-Addan hospital. While I was there, I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where . . . babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators, and left the babies on the cold floor to die."

The massacre never occurred. The girl was actually the daughter of a Kuwaiti emir, and had been coached by the public relations firm Hill and Knowlton to give persuasive false testimony.

e x c e r p t

title: How PR Sold the War in the Persian Gulf
authors: John Stauber and Sheldon Rampton



In fact, the most emotionally moving testimony on October 10 came from a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only by her first name of Nayirah. According to the Caucus, Nayirah’s full name was being kept confidential to prevent Iraqi reprisals against her family in occupied Kuwait. Sobbing, she described what she had seen with her own eyes in a hospital in Kuwait City. Her written testimony was passed out in a media kit prepared by Citizens for a Free Kuwait.



Three months passed between Nayirah’s testimony and the start of the war. During those months, the story of babies torn from their incubators was repeated over and over again. President Bush told the story. It was recited as fact in Congressional testimony, on TV and radio talk shows, and at the UN Security Council. “Of all the accusations made against the dictator,” MacArthur observed, “none had more impact on American public opinion than the one about Iraqi soldiers removing 312 babies from their incubators and leaving them to die on the cold hospital floors of Kuwait City.”




And you trust these people? Ok.

and hey does the govermnet fund NIST?

patrick cm said...

Piss poor analogy, as it is not really a hypothesis of the distance between the earth and the sun.

I just noticed that you think the official story is a hypothesis. That's at least a start.

Eric said...

Oh, so what happened to no one comes forward no evidence,

Evidence? What evidence? You've STILL yet to provide me with evidence? Are you suggesting that these quotes, long taken out of context, are ... what evidence? Proof that you can take to court?

um is that because you brush of speechs in 1922,

No its because you've removed the quotes from context, and twisted them to suit your own needs.

even though it wasn't that long ago and people are still alive who lived back then?

What in gods name are you talking about here. Aside from a populist Mayor who in 1922 was railing against big business and big government you ... what? Think its relevant today because clearly he was talking about a shady group of evil ... what illuminati?

Woudln't you think things would have gotten worse since 1922,

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

i mean the news doesn't even mention the mafia at this point.

I assume you have some reasoning for this ? Perhaps you feel that it is part of the massive conspiracy to overtake the world. Clearly the mafia is working in conjunction with the government and the illumanit and the stone masons and the knight templars to form a New World Order... right? Or something like that? I mean lets not forget that organized crime is still reported on constantly, why in Philadelphia in the past year there was a major trial.


But how can I argue with you eric, you know more about politics than the people who are actually in politics.


Actually I know more about politics and reality then you do, not necessarily the then the people who are actually in them. I read, and consider myself generally smarter then at least 4.6% of the population. You know that percentage that allows fantasy to overwhelm their senses? yeah... thats why you find it so difficult to argue with me.

What about this?


What about it?

Aldous Huxley, Tavistock Group, California Medical School, 1961

Lets see here, Aldous Huxley, a writer, and philosopher. Clearly not really a pharmacist, he was indeed a humanist and really a critic of social norms at the time that he wrote it. So I'm not sure why you would bring this up. A guy said it once, and that means what? Do you buy into everything you read that agrees with your frame of thinking without ever backing it up? Honestly, Patrick are you this much of a joke? Do you try this hard to be stupid? Big frigging deal!

So wait he said that in 1961 so we should ignore this.

No, we should realize that it was said by a philosopher and understand the greater context of what he was saying. In many ways you are the epitome of it, brainless and mindless devotee or something that has no evidence to back it up. It is likely that Aldous Huxley would've despised you.


Or when eisenhower warned against the military industrial complex,

Eisonhower would also have despised people like you. Eisonhower understood the difference between fantasy and reality.

he wasn't talking about 9/11 was he.

Perhaps he was preiscient? I'm sure thats what you are talking about right?

Even though the military industrial complex is making a literal killing,

The military industrial complex... ahh what are we doing here going back to the 1960s, perhaps we should all scream flower power!! FLOWER POWER!!!

But lets be realistic here, the military industrial complex, to steal the words of a good thinker, is really a misnomer. "Its just the industrial system operating under another pretext." What you're railing against here is something rather silly, war makes for good business for some. Big frigging deal. The notion that there is some ulterior motive at work in all wars is an idea that goes back stretching for millenia. It isn't new to Eisonhower or the 60s generation.


it is not related or relevant today that our president warned us.

Are you suggesting that no wars are justified? Perhaps we should've listened to others during WW2? Those who said we should not intervene in European affairs during that time?

Or perhaps you should take the measure of what Eisonhower said and put it into a more appropriate context? Perhaps you should understand that we need to hold leaders accountable for their actions, and be careful in who we elect? Perhaps we should not engage in fantasy or fable when doing this? I dunno... thats just me.

See... despite all of these so wonderful little tidbits that highlight your ignorance, none of it goes a step to proving 911 denial has a remote semblance of the truth. Its just the ignorant ramblings of someone trying to justify why 911 twoof is a valid course of thought. Let me remove that notion from you.

It isn't.

Its just you trying to justify a rather silly and pathetic argument, and trying to defend it with quotes that you do not understand.

Nostradamus wrote about all sorts of things back during his time, thoughts and musings on future predictions, perhaps we should base our lives off what he felt he was writing?

Who gets to pick and choose what quotes are relevant today?

Let me make one thing perfectly clear, many of these people, that you quote. They would despise people like you. You are the epitome of what they disliked.

People like Aldous Huxley or even George Carlin do not find your beliefs, your devotion to something that is not supported by any evidence, at all ... whats a good word.... intelligent? Perhaps you should listen again to what Carlin is saying in that little clip you thought would persuade me or something equally comical.

Being critical of government, does not mean ... hey lets engage in fantasy to do so. Lets make a needlessly complex and absurd plot, spin it into a wild fantasy that makes no sense and present it as the truth!

You admit that there is no evidence to back up your claims, but then you attempt to justify believing in something with no evidence by providing quotes from people who were not talking about what you think they are talking about.

Eric said...


NO IDIOT THEY SHOULD MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE LOSERS AND DISCREDIT THEM< KILLING THEM WILL GIVE THEM CREDIBILITY YOU RETARD


So... lets see here. This government that you claim killed Webb, now will NOT kill a group of 3 losers before they release a video onto the internet that supposedly is going to expose their super sekrit government involvement about how they killed 3000 of its own citizens.

Instead they allow it out onto the web, instead of stopping it, so that they can make all these people look like losers.

o_O

Well.. only in the mind of a twoofer.



what the fuck is this? lol name dropping?


Nope its pointing out the idiocy in your thinking :D


oh most likely? huh um why don't you find out his goal like i did and then you won't show your ignorance.


Well he's pretty much stated that it was ... you know in those videos where he talks about his inolvement in it. I suppose you think those are fake though... right?



"Oh snap" have you ever shot a gun in ur life you fucking clown? OH has no one ever been killed and then they ruled it a suicide to protect people? Ya fucking right. And he just happens to be one guy that is exposing cocaine corruption. Please.


So many things wrong with your statement. So you are saying and lets see here if we got this right.

The following people were involved in this big cover up.

-Gary Webb's family
-His ex-wife
-investigating officers
-Sacramento Police Department
-The Coroner

And thats just the tip of the iceberg.

In addition to this.

-Assassins so incompetent that they waited to kill him 6 years after he had exposed cocaine corruption
-Assassins SO incompetent that they used two shots to kill him ... for larks?
-Assassins so competent though that they got him to write a fake suicide note, put all of his affairs in order before hand, and then managed to convince everyone that it was actually a suicide.

Or perhaps... now this is a just a novel idea, but there is precedent for it, considering it has happened before. Maybe... he actually *gasp* shot himself.

Naw... clearly all of the above thing have to be true....

Nothing points to your inability to actually think beyond what your simplistic belief system tells you more then this unwillingness to let Gary Webb's death go.

AND then ... lets look up above...

Who wrote this:
KILLING THEM WILL GIVE THEM CREDIBILITY YOU RETARD

So wait these sooper sekrit evil people.... killed the guy who was exposing their operation.... but... something on a much grander scale, the killing of 3000 of its own citizens using sooper sekrit technology that you insinuate had to have been used in order to fool all of the investigating teams!

I mean just how can you contradict yourself this much? Is it possible ?

No, I read all the same shit you posted before idiot, but that doesn't mean i just believe whatever i read like you FUMCINGVLK D do

Actually you do, you already admitted that you believe in 911 twoof despite its lack of evidence, you admit that 911 twoof is about fighting against facts. You already admitted all of this, but you believe in it anyway.

See, if you think logically, lets say about Gary Webb's death, you'd take all of the facts and evidence into account.

Have their been suicides with two gun shot wounds before?

The answer is yes. its rare, but it has happened. Then you read about what happened beforehand, that he wrote notes, sent letters to family, got his affairs into order, all of that points more and more to it being a suicide.

This is your line of thinking. HE WAS HOT TWICE, IT WAS A MURDER!!@#!@$!@%@@@@!!!!! Thats it.

No evidence to support your claim, no acknowledgement of the coroner report, or the statements of his ex wife or family, or even the investigating officers.

No clearly they were all in on it ... right?

Eric said...

do you also believe in evolution without any evidence for the belief?

You mean aside from the enormous evidence backing it up right?

Because the evidence suggests that evolution isn't true,

*faceplants*

Dear god.



since you know, humans beings just appear out of nowhere in the fossil record.


HAHAHAHHAHAHHAH

*Falls over laughing*

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

You're serious arent you?

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA


And a lot of attempts at creating fossils of evolving humans have been exposed as hoaxs. The fossil record goes against evolution.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Evolution is one of the most studied, one of the most proven theories of science. It has been tested over and over again, and scrutinized, and it still holds up true.

Lets just provide you with a quote.


The fact that some transitional fossils are not preserved does not disprove evolution. Evolutionary biologists do not expect that all transitional forms will be found and realize that many species leave no fossils at all. Lots of organisms don't fossilize well and the environmental conditions for forming good fossils are not that common. So, science actually predicts that for many evolutionary changes there will be gaps in the record.

Also, scientists have found many transitional fossils. For example, there are fossils of transitional organisms between modern birds and their theropod dinosaur ancestors, and between whales and their terrestrial mammal ancestors.


Much of the criticism of evolutionary theory comes from a grave misunderstanding of it. But let me help you with one thing, modern humans do not just spring up out of nowhere.

What next... are you going to suggest that it is just a 'theory'?

Eric said...

Really you should email Michael Crichton and tell him that since you know more than a guy with his education. I stole that line from him.

Good for you, its still a piss poor analogy.

Crichton also wrote that scientists had recreated some dinosaurs, you going to quote Jurassic Park to me next?

I find most of what Crichton writes to be trash unimaginative and deritive pseudo science junk that is very painful to read and sometimes it seems plagerized. I suggest Baxter if you want decent sci-fi.

patrick cm said...

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it," Rockefeller writes on page 405.


The First Global Revolution (Paperback)
A quote "In searching for a new enemy to unite us we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like, would fit the bill."


still ignoring the anthrax attacks, the ones the senators got before the voted on the patriot act that makes al queda look like they want us to pass the patriot act and was scientifically found to be from our own military.

still ignoring barry seal.

the baby incubator hoax kinda makes you official story types look idiotic.

"Evolution is one of the most studied, one of the most proven theories of science. It has been tested over and over again, and scrutinized, and it still holds up true. "

Shows how much you know. Never , not once, has science ever, ever been able to duplicate macro evolution. Not even under lab conditions set up to induce such evolution.

I can't believe people write books and admit to treason and you come on here and defend them and act like i'm the guilable one.

You are passing off opinion as fact and claiming the weight of the entie scientific community behind you. I couldn't do more to demostrate how full of it you are, than yourself.

Eric said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eric said...

If you watch the collapse, you can see objects being fired out of the WTC buildings with an upward horizontal force, this isn't possible from gravity because gravity pulls down. Their should be no force going up and out but there is.

I think you need to go back and study a little more. Whee did you read this? No force going up? But lets carry this theory a little more, if no force is going up then what is pushing these objects upwards ?

Further wouldn't demolition charges have been heard?

If it was demolition charges why are they not designed like all other demolition charges?

If you look at the first towers collapse, you do not see any debris flying upwards, what you do see though is the building cave inward at the point of impact start to tilt over dangerously and then collapse. You see a lot of dust and debris ejected from the building, but none of it is thrown upwards by any significant measure.



And you trust these people? Ok.


I of course do actually remember the Persian Gulf War. The idea that the government used propaganda to generate momentum for the war?

Say it isn't so!

You mean... they have been... OMG !! My entire world is falling apart.... It can't be true!! I'm buying Loose Change right now... right this very instant.

I mean the government has never used propaganda in the slightest to ever generate sympathy for their wars. Thats such a lie.

http://www.superdickery.com/propaganda/1.html

I mean how can anyone ever imagine that they would!

I mean no government has ever lied to its people in anyway shape or form

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm

Propaganda has never been used before in the past nor will it ever again be used in the future.

http://www.civilwarhome.com/propaganda.htm

Clearly you are absolutely mistaken.

http://library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/britpost/posters.htm

Why the government didn't use fear of 911 or WMD's at all to justify their war with Iraq. Thats just insane!

*shakes head*

Aside from the fact that I do not trust these people and that I have continuously referred to the fact that I am instead backing up the findings of science you go on to say one of the most utterly STUPID and ignorant statements uttered by a twoofer yet.



and hey does the govermnet fund NIST?

I see, so what you're saying is all 2900 engineers and physicsts and technicians that work at the NIST are ... all on it right? The 1800 associates that work there as well?

In addition the FDNY, Purdue University, BBC, the engineering firms contracted by the NIST, Underwriter's Lab, FEMA, FBI, CIA, apparently all the networks, and basically every AIA member, the ASCE, all the demolition companies as well.

Of course the Popular Mechanics groups... they have to be in on it.

Oh and the 99.5% of physicists and engineers in the world who think twoofers are morons...

Am I missing anyone?

So what you are saying is that the NIST which has won Nobel prizes, has limited government over sight, provides for standards in measurement and building codes, maintains a universal time, co-invented Close Captioning, and studied the collapse of the towers and made recommendations on how to prevent another similiar collapse from it....


All of these people plus countless more, have all had their conscience removed and are now incapable of thinking for themselves... based off... repeated viewings of a poorly done, hardly researched, ramblings of Patrick CM.

Lets go over some facts we know about Partick CM.

-Believes that evolution is 'just a theory'
-Thinks that government assassins are so incompetent they fake a suicide by shooting someone twice.
-Thinks that 10,000+ people were involved in the 911 cover up
-All 10,000+ of these people have had their conscience removed
-Thinks that Government propaganda is shocking.
-Finds George Carlin to be a reliable scientific source for information
-Cherry picks quotes from 90 years ago to serve as his support.
-Believes that the government killed someone 8 years after his revelations were exposed, but feels that the government which murdered 3000 people, and then got 10,000 more people to lie about it, would not murder 3 more people, cause it would give the twoof movement too much credibility.

I'm sure I could come up with more, I look forward to your attempt to make a list about me.


If you want my advice Patrick, and you're free to ignore it as I'm sure you will, I'd tell you to shut up about now.

The more you post, the more you look deranged, the more foolish you look and the easier it becomes to simply slap you down and knock another peg out of your faulty thinking.

You're free to continue trying to wriggle and squirm and justify believing in something as ludricuous as 911 denial, but do not expect others to not call you on it.

Eric said...


still ignoring the anthrax attacks, the ones the senators got before the voted on the patriot act that makes al queda look like they want us to pass the patriot act and was scientifically found to be from our own military.


I do not think anyone has ever blamed Al Queda for the Anthrax mailings.

I noticed though that you are tying desperately to get me to go argue about a bunch of points you brought up, while you yourself have yet to even address the first points I brought up, perhaps if you had some sense of shame, you would not try to do something like that.

Clearly I was wrong.

Though personally I have to laugh at the notion that the Anthrax attacks were designed to make the patriot act pass.

Honestly, just imagine it, the attacks on the world trade center, pentagon and such were not enough, they needed that extra Anthrax in there to kick them in the rear right?

Its pretty clear that you are not actually reading what I write, as I have never denied that the CIA used Cocaine as a method to aid in funding the Contras in Nicaragua and overlooked what the Contras were doing.

You seem to think I have this viewpoint that Goverment all good ... or something equally stupid.

Reality is that I'm more then aware of government and its dirty little tricks.

There is a difference though between that idea, and the notion that they went through some ultra complicated plot, that involved thousands upon thousands of people to pull off one of the most needlessly pointless operations in history for no real concrete purpose.

Thats where you come in.

Eric said...


the baby incubator hoax kinda makes you official story types look idiotic.


And why would that be? You might as well say that WMD's make us look idiotic as well.

Except that no one really denies that government uses propaganda. If its a shock to you, then well... it certainly points to a certain lack of critical thinking on your part. And of course excepting that it does not prove 911 being an inside job in anyway. All it proves, was what we already knew, the government uses propaganda techniques. *gasp*

But lets look at the Baby Incubator story shall we? Lets take it at face value, and lets examine it for just a few things.

For instance, the amount of people who would have been needed to pull it off.

You have the emir obviously, his daughter, and the PR Firm who created the stories, and well thats almost about it. You will also need a sensationalistic media that is only to eager to chase any story, regardless of where it may lead. But they did not have to be in the know.

So maybe... 100 individuals or so. Tops.... thats pushing it though, it would be unclear if Bush Sr would actually have known about it nor would he have had too. The PR firm's goal was to push a war.

Coincidentally the PR firm was not paid by the US Government to do this but instead by Citizens for a Free Kuwait (see? research) which received a lot of its funding from the Kuwaiti government.

Almost all of this went to Hills and Knowlton.

And .... none of this could be kept a secret. Less then a hundred conspirators, and it could not be kept a secret.

McArthur's words are amusing, because its doubtful that you could find one in ten who would actually remember the Baby Incubator allegations, but then again, painting your enemy as a villain is no real secret to propagandists either.

patrick cm said...

maybe you need to watch a few different angles to see the large objects being fired outwards and upwards, physically impossible


also path of least resistance, there is no way that the top of the building can come through the bottom with little to no resistance. it's impossible

and you can see clear video footage of the core of the building remaining up for a few seconds as the rest of the building has collapsed around it, then it proceeds to fall straight down. Huge beams of steal fell straight down not fell over, how is that possible from gravity.

ANy fool can see that it's not possible, you don't need to be a scientist, and scientists are not above being fooled themselves. Scientists are not gods as you seem to think.

but hey lets listen to all these scientific dictatorships and not do anything for ourselves. I'm sorry you can't see your slavery.

I give you quotes and history to back up 9/11 truth and what do you have? insults. good job.

and no, i don't think any war is justified when you have pscyopaths creating our money , and funding both sides of ever war for a century or more. I think it's time to stop being naive at this point. 9/11 truth is a path to stop wars for no reason but to generate money for people with too much already.

"There is a difference though between that idea, and the notion that they went through some ultra complicated plot, that involved thousands upon thousands of people to pull off one of the most needlessly pointless operations in history for no real concrete purpose."

But the FBI already did this with the first trade center bombing, which wasn't enough to pass the legislation and then they had OKC bombing which killed children and got the job done with the legislation.

These psychopaths do this shit all the time, what I'm saying shouldn't even be shocking to people. You shouldn't just insult me and call me an idiot because I don't agree with you.

The more you post, the more you look deranged, the more foolish you look and the easier it becomes to simply slap you down and knock another peg out of your obvious attacks and lack of evidence. Most of the things you say aren't even true.

patrick cm said...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gLJ_1-qMujE

nist lying

eye witness molten steel, which is not possible

patrick cm said...

Crichton attended Harvard College in Cambridge, Massachusetts, as an undergraduate, graduating summa cum laude in 1964.[3] Crichton was also initiated into the Phi Beta Kappa Society. He went on to become the Henry Russell Shaw Traveling Fellow from 1964 to 1965 and Visiting Lecturer in Anthropology at the University of Cambridge in the United Kingdom in 1965. He graduated from Harvard Medical School, obtaining an M.D. in 1969, and did post-doctoral fellowship study at the Jonas Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, California, from 1969 to 1970. In 1988, he was Visiting Writer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. While in medical school, he wrote novels under the pen names John Lange and Jeffery Hudson. A Case of Need, written under the latter pseudonym, won the 1969 Edgar Award for Best Novel.


eric is smarter than him though

patrick cm said...

try reconciling the fact of Afghanistan being an occupied country that the Taliban had nearly eradicated opium and heroin production in and in the 6 years of coalition occupation,production is up to 90% of world output. That product is going to the populations of the coalition countries. Somebody is making a killing. Either it is the Taliban and Al-qaida or other terrrorists,as the leadership of the coalition countries would like you to believe, in which case the U.S. LED coalition is malfeasing by allowing the terrorists to profit,thereby perpetuating the war and occupation of the Middle East, or it is lining the pockets of someone else. Either way, by allowing production of the drugs the war,and therefore the ongoing occupation is perpetuated. Prosecuting those end consumers,especially under the guise of supporting terrorism by doing so,is at least seditious,if not downright treasonous. Militarily speaking, not denying the enemy the means to wage war is highly unsound strategy.This particular strategy comes straight from the White House and Pentagon.Who is ultimately responsible for it? Why,the Commander in Cheif, of course. So,once again,you,or any other non-truther,show me some critical thinking rather than the weak bleating I've heard so far. BTW, General Sherman,who set the standards for modern warfare by targeting the civilian infrastructure that supports the war making capability,is rolling in his tomb. With the capabilities we have today,Afghanistan being "a wild place" doesn't mean spit,not with satellites,Predators,Global Hawks,FAE bombs,MLRS and total air superiority. William Tecumseh would have burned every damned last poppy they grow. In a country less than the size of Texas that has lost 70% of it's forests over the last two decades,locating and eradicating the poppy fields (isn't a poppy bright red or orange? Should stand out well againt what is otherwise desert)should be a snap. Unless you don't really want to win the "war on drugs" and the "war on terror" and just want to occupy and abet drug production.


Let me correct myself. The ISAF is mandated by the UN Security Council,under NATO command,which is US led.This just makes the drug conspiracy truly international.

Eric said...

Wow Patrick, your first post in response is really one of the more hilarious posts I've seen in a long time, and let me point out that I like to argue with a lot of twoofers. Here, on youtube, and in various other forums, but honestly here is one of the most utterly deranged and lunatic posts I've yet to witness.

I think the only appropriate response to the long list of tripe and paranoia is to just simply burst out laughing. I know it was my first reaction.

I think that this line is one of the best:



ANy fool can see that it's not possible, you don't need to be a scientist, and scientists are not above being fooled themselves. Scientists are not gods as you seem to think.


Sooo basically here is what Patrick CM is saying, he is saying that any fool without any education in how buildings collapse can see that it should not happen that way. Of course not one credible structural engineer has come forward.... but thats okay... because any fool... can just come up with his theory... and embrace it as fact.

*deep sigh*

So lets go over Patrick's qualifications?

He is a. .... well he's this guy who believes in just about everything imaginable. He conveniently avoids almost all the accusations of the stupidity of his ideas, and just comes up with some pseudo scientific post.

then it proceeds to fall straight down. Huge beams of steal fell straight down not fell over, how is that possible from gravity.

Yeah thats why there was so much damage from them falling =\

Cause they fell straight over!

Course Patrick doesnt let little facts like that stand in his way of the twoof. To him its more important to make idiotic statements like this


also path of least resistance, there is no way that the top of the building can come through the bottom with little to no resistance. it's impossible

Based off having no education at all in the subject.

So tell me Patrick CM did you drop that Anvil on your head like I suggested? If you had ... according to your logic, you should have nothing to fear.

Heres another experiment, build a house of cards and drop a book onto it, well according to you, it should simply slide off or maybe hold them up.

I mean this is the logic you are embracing isnt it? At no point in time can the applied force ever over come something that is designed to hold a static weight of what is above it.

Honestly Patrick, maybe you could stop cutting and pasting your arguements from infowars? That stuff will rot your brain.

Eric said...


eric is smarter than him though


Last time I checked, Crichton writes books of fiction.

*ponder*

But apparently the qualifications of Crichton mean a lot.

Lets look at some of those who worked on the NIST investigation then.

Shyam Sunder
Indian Institute of Technology, Delhi, B. Tech., (Honors), Civil Engineering, 1977

Massachusetts Institute of Technology, S.M., Civil Engineering, 1979

Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Sc.D., Structural Engineering, 1981


• is the lead investigator for the federal building and fire safety investigation of the World Trade Center disaster;
• oversees NIST activities as lead agency for the National Earthquake Hazards Reduction Program (NEHRP); and
• co-chairs the National Science and Technology Council’s (NSTC) Subcommittee on Buildings Technology (SBT) Research and Development.


Yow. Thats a hell of an education, but well, Patrick CM thinks he was fooled .. cause clearly any fool can see that the building should not collapse at all in the manner that it did.

William L. Grosshandler
University of Wisconsin, B.S.,Mechanical Engineering, 1968

University of California, Ph.D., Mechanical Engineering, 1976

H. S. Lew
Washington University, B.S., Architectural Engineering, 1960
Lehigh University, M.S., Civil Engineering, 1963
University of Texas, Ph.D., Civil Engineering, 1967


God ... all these people missing what any fool can see....

Jeez.. and what with all that education on their side too. But not to worry, patrick CM here is impressed with Crichton's education and well, any fool should see it his way too.

Therese McAllister

Florida Atlantic University, 1979, BS Ocean Engineering

Oregon State University, 1986, MS Ocean Engineering

Johns Hopkins University, 1998, MS Structural Engineering

Johns Hopkins University, 2000, PhD Structural Engineering



So far thats a lot of doctorates in engineering, and really in just 4 people we've found more education then well... the entirety of the twoof movement.

But thats not really good enough for Patrick, cause they're all fools... but any fool can see ... well wait, so there highly educated... well respected fools, with education in civil engineering, structural engineering, and years of experience.

But Patrick... he's got this video see... he found it on youtube, and he watched it.... and then hit replay, and watched it TWICE.

And according to David Ray Griffin, who has a masters in the History of Science, well... according to him... it should not have collapsed at all.

In fact it should have taken the hit from the airplane, swayed a little and then... just stood there smoking and on fire, and it should NEVER EVER have had any sort of collapse... based entirely off Patrick CM's repeated viewings of a internet video...

If only all the other people in the world could have the insight that Patrick CM has, after all any fool can see ....

Eric said...

Just a juicy bit of information about what you feel any fool should be able to see:


Yes, there was more than enough gravitational load to cause the collapse of the floors below the level of collapse initiation in both WTC Towers. The vertical capacity of the connections supporting an intact floor below the level of collapse was adequate to carry the load of 11 additional floors if the load was applied gradually and 6 additional floors if the load was applied suddenly (as was the case). Since the number of floors above the approximate floor of collapse initiation exceeded six in each WTC Tower (12 and 29 floors, respectively), the floors below the level of collapse initiation were unable to resist the suddenly applied gravitational load from the upper floors of the buildings. Details of this finding are provided below:

Consider a typical floor immediately below the level of collapse initiation and conservatively assume that the floor is still supported on all columns (i.e., the columns below the intact floor did not buckle or peel-off due to the failure of the columns above). Consider further the truss seat connections between the primary floor trusses and the exterior wall columns or core columns. The individual connection capacities ranged from 94,000 lb to 395,000 lb, with a total vertical load capacity for the connections on a typical floor of 29,000,000 lb (See Section 5.2.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1-6C). The total floor area outside the core was approximately 31,000 ft2, and the average load on a floor under service conditions on September 11, 2001 was 80 lb/ft2. Thus, the total vertical load on a floor outside the core can be estimated by multiplying the floor area (31,000 ft2) by the gravitational load (80 lb/ft2), which yields 2,500,000 lb (this is a conservative load estimate since it ignores the weight contribution of the heavier mechanical floors at the top of each WTC Tower). By dividing the total vertical connection capacity (29,000,000 lb) of a floor by the total vertical load applied to the connections (2,500,000 lb), the number of floors that can be supported by an intact floor is calculated to be a total of 12 floors or 11 additional floors.

This simplified and conservative analysis indicates that the floor connections could have carried only a maximum of about 11 additional floors if the load from these floors were applied statically. Even this number is (conservatively) high, since the load from above the collapsing floor is being applied suddenly. Since the dynamic amplification factor for a suddenly applied load is 2, an intact floor below the level of collapse initiation could not have supported more than six floors. Since the number of floors above the level where the collapse initiated, exceeded 6 for both towers (12 for WTC 1 and 29 for WTC 2), neither tower could have arrested the progression of collapse once collapse initiated. In reality, the highest intact floor was about three (WTC 2) to six (WTC 1) floors below the level of collapse initiation. Thus, more than the 12 to 29 floors reported above actually loaded the intact floor suddenly.

Eric said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eric said...

try reconciling the fact of Afghanistan being an occupied country that the Taliban had nearly eradicated opium and heroin production in and in the 6 years of coalition occupation,production is up to 90% of world output.

I think I already did, oh yes, I did. I'm a little amused at this line of questioning here, since all it shows is that there is a market for drugs. I'm unsure what you hope to accomplish here, perhaps you feel that the ritualized decapitations and the strict poverty that the Taliban inflicted upon those living under its brutal regime.


That product is going to the populations of the coalition countries.

Uh huh... Oh this is rich, is this going somewhere? I suppose some sort of


Somebody is making a killing.

Capitalism a work


Either it is the Taliban and Al-qaida or other terrrorists

O rly?

as the leadership of the coalition countries would like you to believe,

I think the 'leadership' of the coalition countries point more to the fact that the rise in poppy production is being driven by capitalism. While no doubt some terrorist organizations are profitting from it, a lot of money is going to criminal elements as well. Remember that this is a country whose average income per year is about $186 ....


in which case the U.S. LED coalition is malfeasing by allowing the terrorists to profit,

Well considering that the first premise was incorrect this one would be as well. But according to you... we should simply bomb the snot out of those farmers, fuck em right?

I thought you were on the side of 'humanity'


thereby perpetuating the war and occupation of the Middle East,

o_O

Riiiight.... I dont really think you have any idea what is going in Afghanistan.


or it is lining the pockets of someone else.

I'm sure you have all the answers.

Either way, by allowing production of the drugs the war,and therefore the ongoing occupation is perpetuated. Prosecuting those end consumers,especially under the guise of supporting terrorism by doing so,is at least seditious,if not downright treasonous. Militarily speaking, not denying the enemy the means to wage war is highly unsound strategy.This particular strategy comes straight from the White House and Pentagon.Who is ultimately responsible for it? Why,the Commander in Cheif, of course. So,once again,you,or any other non-truther,show me some critical thinking rather than the weak bleating I've heard so far.

Well your entire supposition is wrong, and as such well, the only one doing the weak bleating is yourself here.


BTW, General Sherman,

Oh dear, invoking civil war generals now.


who set the standards for modern warfare by targeting the civilian infrastructure that supports the war making capability,is rolling in his tomb. With the capabilities we have today


I do not think you have even a basic understand of the military doctrine that Sherman espoused.

Afghanistan being "a wild place" doesn't mean spit,not with satellites,Predators,Global Hawks,

You place too much emphasis on the technology.

FAE bombs,MLRS and total air superiority. William Tecumseh would have burned every damned last poppy they grow.

And that would stop them doing what exactly? I mean given that your first supposition is wrong, that Taliban and Al Queda are profiting from the illegal drug trade, and that it is of their own design, then well this one would be wrong.


In a country less than the size of Texas that has lost 70% of it's forests over the last two decades,locating and eradicating the poppy fields (isn't a poppy bright red or orange? Should stand out well againt what is otherwise desert)should be a snap.

Unless of course their plan isnt to wage total war on a civilian population. Apparently the self proclaimed guy on the side of 'humanity' is!

Patrick CM proudly proclaiming the need to fuck the Afghani farms in the name of war.


Unless you don't really want to win the "war on drugs" and the "war on terror" and just want to occupy and abet drug production.

You show a remarkable inability to understand the war that the US is attempting to fight.

Well, this was definitely one of the more ignorant posts. I know... I know, I keep saying that but you keep topping yourself. And its just hard to keep up with the amount of ignorance that you post everytime you hit that PUBLISH COMMENT button.

Lets start at the beginning.

Total War is not what we are fighting here. After all we are not trying to beat a population into submission. This is not WWII nor is it the Civil War. The enemy is not an organized army.

When asked why the farmers grow poppy it is said that they do it out of necessity, the country is drought stricken, and poppy is relatively easy to grow. In fact it is because of the removal of the taliban that the drug trade has flourished.



Until now. Last spring, the village was visited by men from Nangarhar Province, southeast of here astride the trade route from Kabul to Islamabad, Pakistan. The men came with poppy seeds and a promise to pay 10,000 Afghanis — worth $225 to $250 — for each kilogram, or 2.2 pounds, of raw, harvested opium.


In an agrarian nation where per-capita income is $186 a year, 16% of the roads are paved, 12% of the people have access to a sanitation system and barely two out of 1,000 have use of a telephone, that kind of cash crop is irresistible to the estimated 264,000 farmers.

So basically what we have here is nothing more then the wheels of capitalism at work ... again.

Hardly some sort of suspicious activity.

According to a story on NPR, what the US is attempting to do to combat this is instead show the Afghani farmers how to profit from produce crops instead. Unfortunately there is more money to be made in the sell of drugs, and its hard to compete on that level.

The interesting thing with this post that you make here, is how little regard you actually have for human life and the lack of understanding you have for it as well.

To you, people seem to be automatons, waiting to be switched on by the government and then turned off when no one is paying attention. People do not have motivations of their own, and in fact all that they do feeds directly into your paranoia and delusions. Sadly someone who says he's on the side of 'humanity' (laughably nothing could be further from the truth) you show a lack of regard for how humans act.

But then this isn't really a surprise.

Really what you have at work here in Afghanistan and the drug trade is nothing more evil then capitalism at work.

Now I suppose you would be happy if we engaged in total war, annhilated whole cities and then bombed the farmer who was trying to make some money to support his family that would surely win over the population.

And according to you apparently the Taliban was a largely peace loving regime who eradicated drug farmers out of their kindness to Civilization.

You show a VERY, and really, I cannot stress this enough, but you show a VERY SHALLOW view on things. One that remarkably does not credit anyone but a handful of people any sort of motivations beyond what a sooper sekrit government suggests.

Honestly, this latest post of yours actually LOWERS the bar on intelligent discourse to a level that I would not have thought possible. You just keep getting dumber and dumber with each one.

But I am 90% certain that you can go lower yet, prove me right!

Eric said...


eye witness molten steel, which is not possible


The eye witness qualifications to determine what is motel steel versus other molten metals?

Further the idea that there was molten steel, I know what could have caused it, but what do you say caused molten steel?

patrick cm said...

lol eric, nist lies about molten metal, kinda like how everything you say is a lie

Eric said...

Interestingly Patrick failed to answer any of my questions about the qualifications of the people who reported the molten metal at ground zero and whether or not they would know the difference between molten steel and other metals.

But lets look at what the NIST really said.

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.


Interestingly Patrick here would rather rely on what a guy cleverly named Grenadavet says, going so far as to copy and paste something submitted by him, then to actually look for answers.

patrick cm said...

wtc 7 fell because of a fire? hahaha

Eric said...

wtc 7 fell because of a fire? hahaha

And damage to the building from the nearby collapsing sky scraper. Perhaps you missed that.

I suppose you imagine it was some sort of imaginary explosive device that was somehow smuggled into the building and no one ever noticed.

After all the entire building was rigged to be destroyed and for that to occur it had to be gutted. All the while people worked there without every knowing.

Not sure why you find it so amusing, but then again; the way idiots think never did make much sense.

patrick cm said...

oh ya, that's why buildings closer to the tower fell down too right? oh wait they didn't and your obviously a fool whose done no research lols

Eric said...

oh ya, that's why buildings closer to the tower fell down too right? oh wait they didn't and your obviously a fool whose done no research lols

Uhhh... several buildings did come crashing down. WTC 3 4 5 were all nearly crushed by the collapse of the towers.

As far as other buildings in the area, several were damaged.

What you would have to show is that they SHOULD have collapsed based off the damage, their construction, and that WTC7 should NOT have collapsed, despite the variety of reports indicating that they knew as early as 2pm that the building was unsafe and would likely collapse.

Whats pretty clear is that the only research you have done is to read some conspiracy minded website and came to the conclusion based off that biased information.

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